Thread: First two SE shaves done :(

Sec & Cyrano, take note. These gentlemen know what they're talking about. Remove any one of the afformentioned priorities, add no extra pressure with the blade and your face wont feel nice.

X

Originally Posted by cyrano138

i disagree with you, firestart, 1,2, and 3 are to blame if a person isn't getting close enough shaves, but i've done all three for one reason or another, and they don't really cause razor burn.

okay. i'm quoting myself because, obviously, i want to be really really clear, and i want to do it with all proper deference to those who've helped me start SE shaving. having said that, x, i have removed all the aforementioned priorities without incurring razor burn.

everyone just sees that i have only 135 posts and assumes that the guy with 1300 posts is right. granted, i've only been doing this for two months, but i think that's enough time accumulate valid experience, and what i'm saying is this:

everyone seems to be overlooking the possibility that he's working with a dull razor. firestart presented three rules which were intended to prevent razor irritation. i disagree--i have, at one time or another (with a sharp razor), neglected to

1 prepare and lather properly--no irritation

2 stretch the skin--no irritation

3 follow the grain exactly--still no irritation

conversely, i've done all three of these things almost to the letter (with a dull razor), and gotten bad razor burn.
my conclusion: these three things are neither necessary, nor suffcient to prevent razor burn. the blade must be sharp.

i understand that these things will make the difference between a good shave and a great shave, and also that many of you may have had different experiences. but as long as one person (me) has had the experience i'm describing above, it is adequate proof (by counter example) that the statement, "items 1, 2, and 3 are necessary and sufficient conditions to prevent razor burn," is not true.

it is my assertion, then, that sec's real concern should be the sharpness of the blade. in my experience, shaving technique was not difficult at all to acquire. the day i got my shave-ready (about a week after i started) i got a great, close, irritation-free shave. the real challenge has been sharpening and maintenance of the blade. for this reason, when someone assumes a beginner is having trouble because of the thing that (in my experience) was very simple to learn and not the thing that was (in my experience) very difficult, i feel obligated to offer a dissenting opinion. when firestart correctly (in my opinion) pointed out that the angle and pressure might be to blame, he should have stopped there, because the three reasons that followed are not causally linked to bad angle and pressure, as my experience has shown, and despite his otherwise clever domino analogy.

in mathematics and logic, all that is required to disprove a theorem is ONE counterexample. if i've understood firestart's assertion--that 1,2, and 3 will prevent razor burn--and if you believe that i am not lying about my experience, the logic is solid. there isn't any room to argue. so when people dismiss careful thought with platitudes, i am inexplicably compelled to spend an hour in front of my computer arguing about shaving with folks halfway across the world.

please don't take it as hostility, i love the forum and everyone here has been great and generous, and i hope that i've contributed, too. i try to pass on as much as has been passed on to me and to do so in the same spirit. i make this argument in the spirit of dialectic. it seems that the more individual experiences we consider, the more accurate our knowledge will be. i'm throwing a few smileys in here at the end to show that this isn't anything but a light-hearted exercise in logic.

[QUOTE=JLStorm]
2. I was very careful when I was stropping one of my first razors and I still managed to dull the edge accidentally. If the blade is actually pulling this could be a possibility as much as I know you would hate to admit it.

3. If you have pulling from a dull blade you WILL have razor burn, especially if you have sensitie skin.

[QUOTE]

Cyrano I see where you are coming from, and I agree if there is pulling its because of a dull razor, but you have to remember during the first few shaves its pretty hard to figure out exactly what is happening because so many feelings are so new. Is it the razor pulling, is it to much friction, is it the angle. It is even harder to diagnose the problem since sec really is just making guesses, as are we. The more feedback he gets the better.

I just remember when I started shaving I REALLY had trouble admitting to myself that my blade might not be sharp enough...it feels like personal defeat sometimes, especially if the user dulls the blade.

Sec, hang in there, and really if you FEEL that hairs are being pulled and not cut, it may be worth having the edge refreshed. When hairs are being pulled by a dull razor the closest way I can describe the feeling is trying to shave with a crappy electric razor. I hope that helps.

Originally Posted by JLStorm

...The more feedback he gets the better...

that's exactly my point. i think my experience was being dismissed because i haven't been here as long, and i believe that's a mistake. also, i guess i should say i wasn't really directing this at you, since you seem to agree, in part, with what i'm saying, or at least that you allow my explanation is possible.

Originally Posted by cyrano138

that's exactly my point. i think my experience was being dismissed because i haven't been here as long, and i believe that's a mistake. also, i guess i should say i wasn't really directing this at you, since you seem to agree, in part, with what i'm saying, or at least that you allow my explanation is possible.

I dont mean to disregard your feelings, but I have generally found that this is not the case. We have had a number of people who have been straight razor shaving for years and years recently join. Just because someone is new doesnt necessarily mean that they are not experienced, or havent had the same problem that is being discussed in a particular thread.

At any rate, I am sorry you felt as if your comments were being disregarded, and I am sure that it was not intentional, thats just not our way here at SRP.

Wow, thanks for all the great advice! I thought I was going to start WWIII for a minute there

I didn't strop the razor for the first half of my first shave. I did this because I learned from other here that have goobered up their blades by stropping incorrectly. I did strop for the second half of the face and it did work a little better. So I don't think I have done too much damage by my stropping but it is not out of the question.

As far as the angle I was very careful to lay the blade on my face and the raise the spine to roughly two spine withs. So I believe the angle was in the right ballpark.

I will payattention to everything that has been mentioned and give it another go tomorrow.

I am guilty of going over the same spots multiple times to get a closer shave. Of course the skin had little or no moisture so this no doubt contributed to my irritation. I will try to break this habbit and see if that helps.

Tony Miller offered to have me send it back for another trip on the hone, on his dime no less. That is outstanding customer service for sure. I advised him I may take him up on the offer but will try it a few more times before I send it in.

For those of you with applicable experience should I get a 4 sided strop with paste, or a 4K/8K hone first. I figured with the razor already being honed by Tony a strop would be better and eiser to learn before getting the hone, but I would like to hear what other think.

Thanks a bunch!

Originally Posted by Sec162

Wow, thanks for all the great advice! I thought I was going to start WWIII for a minute there

I didn't strop the razor for the first half of my first shave. I did this because I learned from other here that have goobered up their blades by stropping incorrectly. I did strop for the second half of the face and it did work a little better. So I don't think I have done too much damage by my stropping but it is not out of the question.

As far as the angle I was very careful to lay the blade on my face and the raise the spine to roughly two spine withs. So I believe the angle was in the right ballpark.

I will payattention to everything that has been mentioned and give it another go tomorrow.

I am guilty of going over the same spots multiple times to get a closer shave. Of course the skin had little or no moisture so this no doubt contributed to my irritation. I will try to break this habbit and see if that helps.

Tony Miller offered to have me send it back for another trip on the hone, on his dime no less. That is outstanding customer service for sure. I advised him I may take him up on the offer but will try it a few more times before I send it in.

For those of you with applicable experience should I get a 4 sided strop with paste, or a 4K/8K hone first. I figured with the razor already being honed by Tony a strop would be better and eiser to learn before getting the hone, but I would like to hear what other think.

Thanks a bunch!

well, wwIII aside, i still think that somehow the blade got dulled. it could have been caused by anything from the time the package left tony's hands to the time you put the blade to your face.

just to let you know, i often go over the same spot several times to get it close, and with a sharp razor, i still don't get any real serious irritation. how about pressure? is it possible you were pushing against the skin? because zero pressure is optimal.

as far as the hone goes, i'm going to be the black sheep again, and suggest the norton instead of the pasted strop. the strop would be easier, it's true, but you'll have to learn to use the norton eventually, and you can do everything you need to keep a razor sharp with that alone.

Cyrano, I am not dismissing you for being new. Actually you probably have more wet shaving experience than me. However, based on my own experience and experience I observed in other people I interacted with, I came across several peculiarities specific to SE-shaving...
I am not saying that you are 100% wrong, and in all honesty I got into it with you more for my love of a good argument, which many members here will atest to.
Right now, we are in the middle of a trouble-shooting process. The first step was to eliminate what I could right off the bat:
1) I know that Tony's honing produces keen edges (according to my face), and decided to trust Sec's stropping (for now) as he was making an obvious effort to be careful with his stropping.
Therefore, I started looking for factors that would reduce the effectiveness of a sharp blade. The obvious ones were:
1) If the hair does not absorb enough water, it will be more difficult to cut with a wet-shaving implement.
2) If you do not stretch the skin, the hairs won't be as exposed as they should be and that also reduces the effectiveness.
3) Not knowing your facial hair geometry will also reduce the effectiveness of your cuts.
So we had 4 reasons for a lack of efficiency of the shave. One was quarantined, so we were left with 3 reasons why he would not be cutting the hair the way he is supposed to. When there is a lack of effectiveness, we have a natural tendency to apply more pressure and/or increase the number of passes. Both of these measures increase the irritation factor and create the burn.
Now you may not have experienced irritation from a greater number of passes, but you cannot tell me that moving a sharp blade over your skin-cells won't remove a few of them. If you remove enough of them, you will cause irritation. This can be aggravated by increased pressure because of a bad shaving technique from lather to blade-angles/movement.
Yes, a dull blade can cause a reduction of efficiency, but I thought it to be a less likely factor based on my personal experience with Tony's blades. Had it been a blade honed by Sec, I would have been more inclined to suspect the quality of the edge.
Finally, we do agree on something. I have also been getting great results without using pasted paddle strops and I love the lack of dependency on others' honing services. I may get one eventually to make my touchups easier and to get an even keener edge. However, N4/8k should be enough for close, comfortable shaves.

One test for whether your straight is sharp enough is to try one that's machine-honed. Feather ACs are pretty expensive, but Fromm hair shapers are available from any beauty supply store, and they're decent enough. I keep one in my travel Dopp kit, and I can get a comfortable, close shave in five minutes using it and just a few splashes of water on my face. Not as good as with real prep, but only the people who touch my face (none other than me, when I travel) can tell.

Anyway... a disposable Fromm blade is pretty reliable. See how you do with that. If you hate it, you're out $7. If you like it, great. In any case, it provides a comparison.

i think we're on the same page now. let me just say for the record, and people can take it up if they like, that in my experience, poor technique, or lack of diligence to those three items we've all been referring to, leads to two things:

with a sharp blade: cuts.

with a dull blade: a non-smooth, non-close shave, which could, but not necessarily must, lead to irritation.

that was why i said what i said. i figured, even if we trust his honing, the blade was somehow dulled. from what everyone says, the guy who honed it is some kind of demigod or something, so i don't doubt it was ever sharp at all, just that something has happened (probably just some kind of wierd fluke) and resulted in sec shaving with a dull edge.

just a bit of speculation, but since tony's edges are SO sharp, doesn't that mean they are actually thinner, more delicate edges that would be easier to kill with shoddy handling or technique?