Thread: Chinese Badger knots and sweatshops

You know it is all a matter of perspective, there are a lot of jobs, where folks work hard, long hours, no breaks in poor condition and no time off. Hell, I’ve done a few of those, myself and anyone that’s owned their own business, well…

But when we compare rising third world working condition to Union Factory Worker job in the US, who would pay $500 for a knot?

Walmart raises the minimum wage, months later lays off workers, and says the two are un related…yea, right…

Just found this thread... I'd posted earlier in a thread in a similar thread about knots. Think it's relevant here too, so...

I know a lot of Badger knots come from China. There may be various distributors of various badger knot sizes, but have you ever wondered where those distributors actually source theirs from? As soon as anyone mentions China, many people automatically think 'junk'. Given that so many items of every possible description are made there and then distributed worldwide to be resold, you shouldn't think that. I'm a firm believer that you really shouldn't write anything off until you've either tried it, or know for a fact that it doesn't work. Items such as cars that purport to be 'made in England' aren't. Numerous parts are made in various places all over the world (usually the place that can produced them the cheapest) and then maybe assembled in England. I'm sure the same principles apply in US. Anyway, back to shave stuff. If a brush says made in the US, was the knot actually made in the US? Was it assembled in the US?

So, to add a bit more, every badger knot in the UK has been imported as Badger as one of the most protected animals here. There are numerous laws related to them.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

You know it is all a matter of perspective, there are a lot of jobs, where folks work hard, long hours, no breaks in poor condition and no time off. Hell, I’ve done a few of those, myself and anyone that’s owned their own business, well…

But when we compare rising third world working condition to Union Factory Worker job in the US, who would pay $500 for a knot?

Walmart raises the minimum wage, months later lays off workers, and says the two are un related…yea, right…

Well no, it is not really a matter of perspective but a matter of global/free trade. The western gold standard if you worked for a wage was a 40 hour work week with OT being voluntary, weekends off and 2 weeks vacation a year. We now commonly have people interning for no wage in the slim hope of getting a job at the end of it.

The reason countries had duties and tariffs on goods coming in was to protect their own industries which in turn kept the standard of living up because it kept people employed at good paying jobs. Free trade only works well between countries of like standards of living. Once you open the doors to all comers what used to be good paying jobs where the standard of living was high migrate to places with lower standards of living. Those good paying jobs that leave are not entirely replaced by new jobs of similar wages, benefits or hours. It becomes a race to the bottom for wage earners in countries with high standards of living.

This is about the US but applies to most western industrialized countries too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J5WReyQlT0

Bob

Geez guys who else is going to manufacture stuff for our dollar stores? Not North America or Europe.. As for knots they probably do come out of sweatshops but so do so many other products we use and take for granted daily. I think in life some people have to suffer so the rest of us don't.. It's not fair but life isn't.. Badgers in rural China are over populated anyways.. I read that a while ago somewhere..

I don't agree with sweat shops like many of you but I'm sure there is one or more product I use daily that comes out of one. Such is life.. Offshoring ... For $$ not quality

O.P the North American badger is a protected species. Not sure about European.

Looking at our state hunting regulations (Missouri) yesterday I was surprised to see there is a season on badgers here.

Originally Posted by Leatherstockiings

Looking at our state hunting regulations (Missouri) yesterday I was surprised to see there is a season on badgers here.

Yep most of the US is open for hunting Badger..

Badger Fur for brushes is mostly from Asian Fur Farms and a few left in Finland, at least that is what my research over the years has yielded...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Yep most of the US is open for hunting Badger..

Badger Fur for brushes is mostly from Asian Fur Farms and a few left in Finland, at least that is what my research over the years has yielded...

I haven't researched it at all, but Simpson calls them "Manchurian" because that is where they are harvested AFAIK. I've heard that most knots come from China, or the Far East.

What I find interesting is the big outfits like Simpson, Plisson, Rooney &c get superior knots. The golden nib, or whoever just do not hold a candle to them. They cannot compare ..... IME.

As far as labor conditions ......... as of 2008 ;

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/05/bu...pagewanted=all

Well to look at things from a different perspective. Everyone wants quality product, inexpensive prices and fair wages. Obviously we cannot get all that wrapped with a bow on it. We have to shop and decide where we will buy and what of those things is most important to us. Like the rest of life it is a balancing act. There are million of people primarily in Asia that work under terrible conditions producing second rate products for middle class people in developed countries. We all want the best for those people but don't want to pay for it, very few people even look for fair trade items. If we all suddenly decided that that is what we are going to do, there would be millions starving to death, because that is their only choice, slave labour and a meal or no labour and no meal. It's sad but true. I do believe that many manufactures have started to show that they are not involved in sweatshops in order to justify slightly higher prices, and it often works well. We need to migrate how we do business in this global market place in order to effect change for the betterment of all, in all countries. In the end we are but one race.

I will chime in on this thread as I have direct experience with these issues. Until about 4 years ago when I changed jobs I had responsibility for factory compliance with minimum standards such as referenced (i.e. making sure the factory is not a sweatshop). For my entire career I have been involved in international trade compliance.
First, I don't like the term sweatshop as it has a connotation that promotes the activists agenda. Often these reports you see are filled with lots of inflammatory rhetoric. If you remove this rhetoric and look at the facts, often there are little there to discover. The article cited references an NLC report. I will not directly comment on my experience with their reports but I do advise caution. They have an agenda and will issue reports specifically written for their agenda.
I will be the first to admit that I, as a westerner would not want to work in the conditions in some of these factories. However, that is an unfair comparison. Most Chinese factories are staffed by people who come from inland China, they live in dorms at the factory and plan to work for 2-3 years, save as much money as they can and go home. For this reason, most employees want to work the long hours. In fact, one dueling issue that I frequently ran across was working hours. The law in China is an average of 60 hours per week each month. The problem is when employees interviewed for a job they would ask how many hours they would get to work. If they were told less than 80 hours per week they left the interview and went to a factory across the street. The employees wanted to work hours to make as much overtime as possible and get back home with savings. The dorms are crowded and have up to 8 bunk beds in a small room. People just slept there. Would I leave my king size bed and high thread count sheets for this? Not if I can help it. However, I have also been to places where these employees are from. I have seen the huts made from mud brick, using corn stalks thatched for a roof, they burn corn cobs for heat and eat corn mush all winter. No floor and just a mat to sleep. The dorm does not look so bad from this view.
Yes there have been abuses but eventually equilibrium begins to take affect. Normally after Chinese New Year, when employees go home for a few weeks, you expect 25% not to return to the factory. The last year I was in China only 25% did return. Factory wages were increase purely on supply and demand. Employees are able to demand better conditions.
I could go on for a very long time but don't want to drone on unless there are specific questions or concerns. Just know that how you say something and what filler words you use can skew the argument and conditions are often relative.

Finally, for the origin question. It appears that a prepared knot and a shaving brush are imported as the same classification. With such the rules of origin would dictate that the origin is not just where the knot and handle are assembled. If properly declared it would need to be the country where the knot was made from individual hairs. This is my opinion after a quick view of the import rules and is not to be considered legal advise.

Just be thankful no one decided that White Rhino whiskers make the best brushes.

It's the age-old problem with Capitalism: the people who do the work only ever see a tiny fraction of the price of the item - most of the money goes to the middle and top because the wages of the people who do the actual work are considered a "cost", and costs are there to be minimised. That's just good economics.

James.