Thread: Dissapearing lather with 2-band badger brushes and tallow-based soaps...

Hi, gents,

So, I've waited about a year before posting this because I've been experimenting with my newer brushes.
I was a shavemac D01 user for about 9 years until it started shedding like crazy, sent an email to Bernd, agreed to send him the brush and all of a sudden he got lost, never answered any of my emails, nothing, even though I got the notification from Fedex DE that the item was successfully delivered. I insisted, but never got even the slightest sign of an answer. I don't know why most people say they have good customer service but this was my experience. I didn't want to escalate I pretended it didn't happen.

Since then, I moved to artisan-made brush handles and I'd buy badger knots directly from Chinese manufacturers like Boti and Oumo.
All of the knots I've got from them are great, the finest, best badger and great Silvertip too. They perform well with any soap or cream I've tried like Proraso, MWF, Barrister and Mann, Phoenix Artisan, Palmolive shaving cream, Lodrino, Tabac, Noble Otter, Wholly Kaw, you name it.

Very easy to lather, they're very soft silvertip brushes (the finest not that much but they lather great too) no matter if they're small or giant I've got these brushes from 20 to 30 mm knots. No matter what size I use or what soap or cream I use, the silvertip (being Chinese, or European like Rooney, or my lost Shavemac) and the finest do very well lathering anything too.

The water in my area is not soft, but it's not hard either never had a problem with that. BUT, here comes my problem...

I've got two 2-band badger brushes and had another one which I couldn't but give away to a friend.
- Boti Captain Ffinest 2-band in 26 mm
- Oumo Manchuria Finest 2-band in 28 mm
- Oumo LotusTip Manchuria in 24 mm (this is the one I gave away)

I've used this brushes with many vegan base soaps and creams, with VERY little loading time they make a ton of lather. If I load more, they lather great too but I need too much more water. Even my big Manchuria with 28 mm doesn't need too much loading time with PAA or other non-tallow products, etc. The same for the Boti Captain Finest 2-band...

THEN, if I try to lather any tallow-based soap or cream like Barrister, or Wholly Kaw, no matter if I load for 30 seconds or a minute, I can't get a decent lather UNLESS I load for at least two or three minutes. If I load less, the build-up only dissapears on my face or in the bowl...

With a 3-band silvertip, or best badger, I can load PAA for about 5 seconds (yes, only 5 seconds) and get a ton of lather. For the case of a tallow-based, 10 seconds is enough for a ton of lather.

I don't know if there's something wrong in the combination of 2-bands + tallow products or what. But if I load the same amount of time I load a vegan soap with a 2-band badger brush, or any soap or cream no matter tallow or vegan but with a 3-band badger, then I can't get a good lather very quickly.

Here's what I looks like I want to make this easier to understand (I'm more of a soap user):

3-Band badger + vegan soaps + 5-10 seconds loading time = tons of lather (for at least three passes)
3-Band badger + tallow soaps + 5-10 seconds loading time = tons of lather (at least three passses too)
3-Band badger + vegan or tallow soaps + 1 minute loading time = lather is too thick and I need to use TOO MUCH water. I've found I don't need too much loading time with a 3-band silvertip unless it's a 5 or 6 passes shave which I don't really need to do.

2-band badger + vegan-based soap + 5-10 seconds loading time = tons of lather (yes, enough for at least three passses too)

2-band badger + tallow soap + 5-10 seconds loading time = small build-up dissapears in seconds
2-band badger + tallow soap + 1 minute loading time = lather appears (either face or bowl)... then dissapears...
2-band badger + tallow soap + 2 minutes loading time = decent lather, but not really consistent, more like of a thin lather
2-band badger + tallow soap + 3 minutes loading time = Finally, same result as with 3-band badger brushes TONS OF LATHER for three passes...

I used my Casio G-Shock's timer to measure this. Also, I always soak my brushes in a mug with warm water while I shower. That makes a soaking time of about 5 minutes.

For the case of 2-band, I even tried not soaking the brush while I shower only 15-20 second under running water but same poor performance with tallow-based products.

So, do you have any idea why my 2-bands require SUCH A LONG loading time to get a good lather in comparison with any other badger brush?
Does tallow hate the 2-band badgers? Anyone else experimented this too?

Sorry if reading this was tiring for you.
I'd really like to get some feedback.

Thanks for your time,
Yours,
Coffee Addict

Every soap brush combo requires a different mix of water and strokes to build a good lather. I don't use your soap or brushes so I can't advise you but all of my brushes are two band Manchurians and I mainly use MDC and Castle Forbes and Meisner Tremonia and Sebum Gold. The Sebum is challenging to lather and the rest require little to get explosive lather.

You just need to play with those combos to get it right.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Every soap brush combo requires a different mix of water and strokes to build a good lather. I don't use your soap or brushes so I can't advise you but all of my brushes are two band Manchurians and I mainly use MDC and Castle Forbes and Meisner Tremonia and Sebum Gold. The Sebum is challenging to lather and the rest require little to get explosive lather.

You just need to play with those combos to get it right.

Loading time with my 20 mm 3-band silvertip is 5 seconds and I get tons of lather. Loading time with my 30mm 3-band silvertip is 10 seconds and tons of lather. My 2-bands are smaller than 30 mm. One is 26 mm and the other one 28 mm. But I was thinking that the tips of the 2-bands might be too soft to pick up soap quickly... maybe that's the reason?

Usually a smaller brush takes longer to load up and holds less lather. My Simpson chubby 3 Manchurian is an absolute lather hog and no matter the soap loads up instantly. On the other hand my smaller like 26 or 24mm brushes take longer and hold less. Of course if you be talking croaps and creams that changes the dynamics in your favor.

I have certain brushes that work better with glycerin soaps. And their the same knot from same manufacturer.

Yea, glycerin soaps tend to lather up much faster than tallow based ones. My Sebum Gold Soaps are all natural, neither glycerin or tallow and they can be challenging to get a good lather. Once you get the hang of it they perform great.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Yea, glycerin soaps tend to lather up much faster than tallow based ones. My Sebum Gold Soaps are all natural, neither glycerin or tallow and they can be challenging to get a good lather. Once you get the hang of it they perform great.

Yes, even with 3-band silvertip tallow is a little bit more challenging than vegan. But with 2-band it's really a lot of loading what I need to do. Too much. I don't know what's making a difference there. Some people told me to use dish soap and clean very well the 2-bands.

3 band silver tips are usually soft as a marshmallow while the two banders are usually manchurian and have way more backbone to them. It would seem to me the softer tips are best for croaps and creams while the two bander for soaps.

Of course there are all kinds of two banders out there. I've seen three's cut down to look like two's to command a bigger price and even brushes dyed to look like something else. You also need to look at brush density. That makes a big difference too.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

3 band silver tips are usually soft as a marshmallow while the two banders are usually manchurian and have way more backbone to them. It would seem to me the softer tips are best for croaps and creams while the two bander for soaps.

Of course there are all kinds of two banders out there. I've seen three's cut down to look like two's to command a bigger price and even brushes dyed to look like something else. You also need to look at brush density. That makes a big difference too.

Thank you very much for your time.
I really appreciate it,
Kind regards,

Edmar