Thread: Knot Sources Pros Cons

Originally Posted by RobinK

Glen, that is a great question. Since we have several members from China, why not send them on a fact finding tour? Can't be that difficult, really. And who knows what else they'll find? Like those few hundred Heljestrands we found in Eskilstuna. Glorious fun.


How do we know, indeed? Tell you what: They may actually be using the same process. But if they do, they are doing it wrong, cf this post.

The reality is much simpler: The Chinese do not aim for the high quality market. They never have. They go for mass production, and low- to mid-end markets.* First when they flooded the market with black badger paint brushes, then with badger cosmetic brushes. That is why so few traditional brush makers have survived. There is no market for high quality paint or cosmetic brushes (I'm talking about the consumer segment, not (make-up) artists). Viktoria make decent shaving brushes, but as you can see, they use industrial machinery to speed up the production process. Which is not what high quality brush makers do. Quality has its price when it comes to manufactured products, I'm sorry.

To tell you the truth, though, I find it remarkable that, in this forum, on the one hand craftsmanship is a virtue that is extolled, but on the other, people are more than happy to accept inferior goods just because they're cheap. And Chinese knots are inferior, it's as simple as that. They are also cheap. But if you want cheap and serviceable shaving stuff from China, get a Gold Dollar with a Frank Shaving** brush. They'll work. Only, they're not what we're here for, are they?

Just saying

Have fun
Robin

* Yes, I know that that doesn't apply to all their ICT equipment and similar high tech stuff.

** I am actually doing FS brushes a big injustice here. A friend of mine is bringing a few over from China, because I like them, as they are cheap yet very good - for their price which is laughable.

So you made assumptions You could have just said that .. But it does pretty much discount your entire argument to simply opinion..

Anybody else actually know ???

It seems that the system is relatively easy, simple turned metal Go/No Go gauges for shaping and stacking..

One statement that makes little sense is the one about "Trimming the Tips" that seems that it would actually add a step and complicate a very simple process, even if the process was automated..

Originally Posted by gssixgun

One statement that makes little sense is the one about "Trimming the Tips" that seems that it would actually add a step and complicate a very simple process, even if the process was automated..

This never made sense to me either. Why give a brush a relatively complex haircut so to speak, when the production technique outlined here is so much faster and gets a better result.

I was joking about making the knots really ill leave that to the brush guys if they are so inclined. To me a lot of the mystery behind the construction of these things have become much clearer due to this very interesting thread

The Simpsons vid of knot making in an earlier post does show staff trimming the knots in the final stage just before gluing and assembly with the handle. The trimming was done on the butt/glue plug end of the knot and not a time consuming reshaping of the knot tips.

Never have seen a vid or photos of a Chinese badger knot being made in one of their factories. Seeing a vid of that would really help clear up a few things.

Bob

Just checked the tips of 5 badger silvertip brushes, 3 from the EU and 2 from China. I used the hand loupe I had for honing and to my untrained eye I had a hard time seeing much of a difference in how the tips looked. On all 5 brushes some appeared fine tipped and others appeared cut all in the same knot. It might be worthwhile to check a few out as I am puzzled by what I thought I was seeing.

Bob

Bob I would assume that you would have to look at "New Knots" since wear and tear occurs even from the beard

I could be wrong but that was my thought

Of course Magnification is sometimes not even proof for some, I have seen people argue "Factory Shave Readiness" even when the magnified edge is right there in front of them to see ...

I have a New TGN knot at home but I do not have a New premium brush that I haven't used


I will see if I can't get a USB shot

Originally Posted by BobH

Just checked the tips of 5 badger silvertip brushes, 3 from the EU and 2 from China. I used the hand loupe I had for honing and to my untrained eye I had a hard time seeing much of a difference in how the tips looked. On all 5 brushes some appeared fine tipped and others appeared cut all in the same knot. It might be worthwhile to check a few out as I am puzzled by what I thought I was seeing.

Bob

Just did a quick look with loupe at my TGN & WSP HMWs of same size, same usage, same age and it is easy to see the difference. WSP had way more tapered tips and is denser vs. quite a few looser cut tips of TGN. For me the WSP is softer on my face.

Originally Posted by jmercer

Just did a quick look with loupe at my TGN & WSP HMWs of same size, same usage, same age and it is easy to see the difference. WSP had way more tapered tips and is denser vs. quite a few looser cut tips of TGN. For me the WSP is softer on my face.

I was just looking at the tips not how dense they appeared to be. Like I said my untrained eye and what I thought I was seeing. So it appears that I just might be mistaken about the tips.

Just to be sure, you are saying the WSP knot had no cut tips or just more uncut tips than the TGN? I am guessing neither should have any cut tips if they were not forming the shape of the knot by cutting.

Bob

Years ago there was a rumor going around that Rooney bleached their FInest knots. Couldn't have been 'that' white otherwise. Rooney of course, denied it, and I doubt that they were bothering with such a practice. Like the other high end volume makers, they had a source for the highest quality badger bristle.

Looking at the Simpson video it seems quite simple, how they form their knots into a consistent shape, bulb or fan. Could you imagine trying to cut/trim a knot into a bulb shape ? Seems to me it would be a fool's errand. How difficult it would be to do it consistently knot to knot. Add to that, the ease with which the knots were formed using the template before tying.

Trimming the bottom makes perfect sense, and will not effect the performance of the knot, the feel on the skin, in any way. I've felt TGN knots on my face, and I've felt the aforementioned high end knots. You get what you pay for, but the TGN ain't bad at all IME. Nice for the price. IMHO.

So where does two band hair fit in? Is it still considered Silvertip badger hair, just from a different part of the badger? At the same time, does this make hairs such as "high mountain white" and "manchurian" nothing more than a marketing ploy? Very interesting information, good detective work.