A Talk of Steel.

A subject I know so little about.
I think that I'm like most men, as I like my knives, tools to be made of quality steel. The problem for me is that if someone asked me to explain the difference in the pocket knife that is made in China & the one stamped made in America., I would be hard pressed to give a good answer on the spot. My answer at hand would be mainly based on the reputation of the American company that I would steer them toward.

So my questions are for the men here, who have forged or been around steel manufacturing plants.
I will pick China steel in comparison to American steel, even though other counties forge their steel too.

Why do so many men say that China steel is inferior to American steel?
Is this a political bias or is their steel made differently than ours?

**Note: This thread is not intended to open up political discussions on wages, unions or off shore jobs,,,just trying to find out why steel from China is looked down upon. **

Thanks for taking the time to give your input.

I think one major difference between steels of any country is the quality control. If they don't use stringent standards, then more than likely the steel is not going to be as good as a company that does. Working for a company that melts titanium, they spend a lot of time formulating the blends of titanium as well as checking the product as it is being melted to insure it is correct. That takes time, money, and experience. If a company is selling a .99 knife, I doubt they invest enough to make a quality product.

I do believe there are standards for steel. If it falls within a standards ( like ASTM ) specifications then it is the same.

The problem with standards is...are they checked? I have heard many stories of grade 8 bolts being required and a contractor went cheap with china "grade 8", and after something broke or collapsed, then they found out sure it was marked grade 8 but it wasn't really grade 8.

So are talking about "cutting corners", just to get a piece out on the market?

Well that is an old story and if they do that it is the same as counterfeiting money. There will be penalties. I think China has learned a lot of lessons as far as standards go. Let's face it, would you buy dog food from China or children's toys ? Not for a long time. And that is what they are learning.

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Originally Posted by 10Pups

I do believe there are standards for steel. If it falls within a standards ( like ASTM ) specifications then it is the same.

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There are standards for minimum or maximum performance and alloy composition, this is true. However, meeting specifications does not require purity to a specific percentage in every case. One of my bladesmith friends learned this the hard way when "spec" steel was delivered and he blew up ten blades during the first heat treatment run. The "spec'd" steel required a complete retest to learn a different heat treatment regime. It was an expensive lesson especially given the initial investment in a large amount of steel that would have been wasted otherwise. The spectrograph testing indicated at least ten additional alloy elements that simply did not appear in the "spec" and so were not even considered an issue by the steel mill. It met spec, it was what was ordered and delivered.

Quality by country is part of steel's history and cannot be completely excluded. Swedish raw ore was always the best and is one factor that contributed to the political neutrality during the wars. Sides in opposition freely purchased ore to make munitions due to this status.

In the end if quality control during production produces a chemically identical material it makes no difference. But each new batch I get, I test, only because there are variables outside the specifications that are simply not part of the quality equation while they remain well inside what I consider the performance equation. The blades from each new batch are just as good as the last batch, but I have to be flexible and adaptable in my shop practice. Sure, it's a pain in the buttocks, but I'm too cheap to throw away thousands of pounds of perfectly good material when I can change a little here or there. I don't have to bellyache that the steel's not good enough.

My take on the problem anyway. YMMV

Many plusses and thanks to MikeBlue on that one. You can be sure that they steel used in the cheap dime store pocket knives are going through very little quality control. The fact is, used steel is shipped by the container load from here, over to china, and then recycled, and shipped back here. I think its a sad state of affairs that its cheaper to ship back and forth across the globe then it is to recycle it right here. But that's the deal. Blades made from unknown and mixed steels vs steel freshly produced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Oa3MzTin2Q

Looks like a new idea for an exercise machine Wullie. :D

There's many factors that contribute to the quality of a blade: carbon content, contaminants, alloy and temper. If you buy a good brand knife you can be sure that rigid quality controls were part of the manufacturing process, with unknown brands it is hit and miss really. Most cheap quality stuff for sale in the West is made in China but that does not necessarily mean the Chinese do not know how to make high quality stuff.

You need to ask yourself whether you need to spend the extra $$ for the jobs you are going to use the knife for.

//Start long rant...
Right or wrong, my prejidice & experience tells me that if you want to offshore something to China, they will build it to the specifications that you require. Price point comes into play I suppose.

If you want good, I think they can make good.
If you want cheap, I think they can make cheap.

I have had a few China knifes. The steel was fine on all of them.
But the pocket knifes fell apart (lock blade knives, screws came out and were lost).

I have never had a Pakastan knife that I liked.

I have two Old Timer fixed blade knives that are the same model, one from USA one from China - I cannot tell the difference apart from the markings (and apart from the fact my wife takes her USA knife to scrape glue off of concrete, pry staples from furniture, and what not with hers...uuuug).

Over the decades I have had cheap USA knifes, and more costly USA knifes.
My favorite brand is Case - and I have never had a problem with the edges on them.
Case have been costly, and I have not had many of them (I tend to loose small knifes every so many years).

My mother in law owns some famouse branded & expensive USA kitchen knifes that I cannot put an edge on - go figure. It is as if they are counter fits - and for all I know they are. How hard is it to put someone else's brand name on a knife....

And I have some kitchen/hunting/fishing/steak blades that I picked up for $4 US or so each, made in USA, that have first rate edges. ($4, that must have been some time back, I cannot imagine they are still $4 with the US Government diluting our money).
The wife's German knives have WAY better handles, and are much heavier - and she likes them.
The German knives are of WAY better quality for sure - and any idiot could tell that right off. But the $4 knives cut just as well. I cannot comment on edge retention, maybe I should investigate how long they stay sharp.

//end long rant
Jody

I am with Mike on this one. If you look at specs, they may list typical percentages, but the actual standard says 'A should be more than X and less than Y' and so on and so forth. And you expect that the steel you get is made up only of the specified elements. But that's not a given, nor is it required. Anything and everything could be in there, as long as the spec is met. And that is of course ignoring the fact that quality control in china can be very poor.

But that is not to say Chinese is automatically bad. I know there are several people in China making high quality katana. However, things like pocket knives are production line items (cheap), and with the default poor quality control and variance in the actual steel, the quality of the actual blade is a crap shoot.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I am with Mike on this one. If you look at specs, they may list typical percentages, but the actual standard says 'A should be more than X and less than Y' and so on and so forth. And you expect that the steel you get is made up only of the specified elements. But that's not a given, nor is it required. Anything and everything could be in there, as long as the spec is met.

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A bit off topic, but this is true for meat products as well. Baloney, hamburger, meatballs, etc.
From a legel pov, certain poducts may contain more than 0% and less than 5% of heart meat. Less than 7% internal organs, etc. In the meat industry, nothing goes to waste, so a simple piece of baloney has a rather long list of specs. I once had a math tacher in college who also solved math problems for the industry.

One problem he once had to solve was for a meat processing company. They explained this topic about specifications, and then asked him: 'Of course we have to monitor the contents for quality control. However, sometimes mistakes happen. In terms of one off 'mistakes', which one would be financially most interesting to make (wink wink)?

The same will be true for your chinese steel. Even IF they care about meeting the spec, they'll do it in such a way that they observe the letter of the spec while also getting rid of whatever scrap they have lying around that week. Swedish steel mills otoh are much more concerned about their reputation so they'll target their chemical composition to the typicals values.

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Originally Posted by Wullie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Oa3MzTin2Q

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I wonder if that's how they made my GoldDollar LOL!

They only needed one employee to make your Gold Dollar. :rofl2:

Boomers will remember 'Made in Japan' was synonymous with junk, and generally their exported products were a joke. I'm not sure China has the same kind of drive for excellence built into their culture that Japan does, but it is a country that might have a win at any cost attitude. The arts and culture of China are deep and should they turn their attention to production of quality products....hang onto your hat.

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Originally Posted by WW243

Boomers will remember 'Made in Japan' was synonymous with junk, and generally their exported products were a joke. I'm not sure China has the same kind of drive for excellence built into their culture that Japan does, but it is a country that might have a win at any cost attitude. The arts and culture of China are deep and should they turn their attention to production of quality products....hang onto your hat.

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I agree. I am not one to say China will make inferior products forever.
It's just that at this point in time, their economy is based in shipping large quantities.
As you say, the end result will be driven partly by their culture, and partly by the economy's demands.

China supplies consumer goods at a price point and quality level demanded by outside companies that contract them to manufacture them. Well known foreign companies do this and if the product is inferior then either the foreign company is not ensuring quality standards are being met or they just want junk to be made. Boeing has parts made in China for their aircraft production so lets hope the quality is there next time you fly on a newer Boeing plane and I am pretty sure it is. China can make crap or good stuff deepening on what is demanded of them.

Bob

I have a Boker Chinese knife. From what I've read, the blade and all of the parts are all made in Germany but the final assembly takes place in China. Considering that the entire thing is held together with screws, I figured the worst that might happen is that I may need to tighten one at some point. I guess my point is that just because it states that its a Chinese version doesn't necessarily mean that it was actually made there. It could just be the assembly.

Yea, now that is where you have to be careful, the made in part. I have read that Leica at one time or another had parts made in other countries, Canada being one, and those parts were shipped to Germany for assembly. The finished product was marked made in Germany. When you buy a car these days many of the component parts come from various countries but only the country of assembly gets the made in sticker.

Bob

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Originally Posted by OCDshaver

I have a Boker Chinese knife. From what I've read, the blade and all of the parts are all made in Germany but the final assembly takes place in China. Considering that the entire thing is held together with screws, I figured the worst that might happen is that I may need to tighten one at some point. I guess my point is that just because it states that its a Chinese version doesn't necessarily mean that it was actually made there. It could just be the assembly.

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Ye. Global trade being what it is, you can get very funny constructions because from a tax pov, there is a difference in parts vs end product. A guy I know personally owns a clothing company together with a couple of others. They buy individual pants legs, ship them to poland or ukraine (I remember it's a former eastern bloc country). There they just stitch them together instead of doing that in where the pieces are coming from.

This way, they pay very little taxes because the eastern bloc country is in it mainly for the employment. For my friend, shipping back and forth is a lot cheaper than finishing the entire product in the west.

I remember people complaining about quality control when norton started making their combo stones in Mexico instead of the US. But if you read the documentation, you could see that the individual halves were already made in different places. they were just glued together in the US to make it 'and American product'.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Ye. Global trade being what it is, you can get very funny constructions because from a tax pov, there is a difference in parts vs end product. A guy I know personally owns a clothing company together with a couple of others. They buy individual pants legs, ship them to poland or ukraine (I remember it's a former eastern bloc country). There they just stitch them together instead of doing that in where the pieces are coming from.

This way, they pay very little taxes because the eastern bloc country is in it mainly for the employment. For my friend, shipping back and forth is a lot cheaper than finishing the entire product in the west.

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Exactly. Imagine if you saw a razor from Pakistan (something no one here wants to touch) but found that the blade was made in Germany but simple scaled in Pakistan. You might have a go at it knowing that business end of that razor should be of good quality. In my case the knife itself was of low cost. Combined with what I had read about where the parts were made and how it was constructed, it was an easy decision.

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Originally Posted by BobH

China supplies consumer goods at a price point and quality level demanded by outside companies that contract them to manufacture them. Well known foreign companies do this and if the product is inferior then either the foreign company is not ensuring quality standards are being met or they just want junk to be made. Boeing has parts made in China for their aircraft production so lets hope the quality is there next time you fly on a newer Boeing plane and I am pretty sure it is. China can make crap or good stuff deepening on what is demanded of them.

Bob

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Exactly.

Also....let's not pretend that "Made in China" means anything. After all...you're talking about a country with a population that's around one fifth of the WORLD's population.

Does crap come from there? Offcourse, but crap is also made in the US, and in Germany and in France etc etc etc.

But when held up to the right quality standards they can make good steel just like anyone that's being held up to those standards. At the moment though there's no demand for high quality Chinese steel so they don't really make much of it. Their 8Cr13Mov steel is decent stuff when the right factory makes it (I suspect there's a whole bunch of Chinese steel mills).

It's like that saying:

"Cheap, Fast, Good, pick the TWO factors that you value most."

And in general when ordering from China companies value Cheap and Fast......Good.....not so much.

I know of at least one producer of pocketknives that values GOOD from China and he gets it from them. He's heavily invested in the quality control and training side with his supplier though.....so that's how he gets it. People complain that his stuff isn't as cheap as other "made in China" knives but he tells me that they make knives that no American company would even tackle and they make them very well.....and that's without talking about the fact that even if they did the price would be 5x as high.

I worked at U.S. Pipe & Foundry for 22 years and they manufacture ductile iron pipe but that doesn't really apply here as it's cast iron not steel. ;)

I'm assuming that China's steel production is similar to everything else they produce. With cars they copy off of patents and designs of other countries and slap them together without putting in the years of work done in the past then they plead ignorance when approached about fair trade agreements and laws.
As far as American steel, there has been over 100 years of refining processes, research and development, quality control with a goal of continually improving the products being made. America has simply put in the time and effort to produce quality.

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Originally Posted by Steelystan

I'm assuming that China's steel production is similar to everything else they produce. With cars they copy off of patents and designs of other countries and slap them together without putting in the years of work done in the past then they plead ignorance when approached about fair trade agreements and laws.
As far as American steel, there has been over 100 years of refining processes, research and development, quality control with a goal of continually improving the products being made. America has simply put in the time and effort to produce quality.

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That may be a sore point but has little to do with whether they can produce a good steel or other consumer product if that is what is demanded of them. Take into account that other countries have been producing good steel longer than the US, does that make these other countries steel better?

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

That may be a sore point but has little to do with whether they can produce a good steel or other consumer product if that is what is demanded of them. Take into account that other countries have been producing good steel longer than the US, does that make these other countries steel better?

Bob

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Good point. And keep in mind the 'Made in the US' Nortons.
America has been doing similar things as China for a long time as well.
As have other countries. We tend to conveniently see only the splinter in the other guy's eye, and not the beam in our own eye.

Steel is low tech these days. Very easy to make with modern technology and quality controls. Now the iphone and ipads etc are all made in china and are not simple devices that sell for a large profit margin. But yet they seem to work just fine. If they can assemble and produce a high quality electronic device like these and a proven track record of quality, making steel is much easier. My take on the whole thing is they can make cheap or good quality. Depends what you are willing to pay for it.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

Steel is low tech these days. Very easy to make with modern technology and quality controls. Now the iphone and ipads etc are all made in china and are not simple devices that sell for a large profit margin. But yet they seem to work just fine. If they can assemble and produce a high quality electronic device like these and a proven track record of quality, making steel is much easier. My take on the whole thing is they can make cheap or good quality. Depends what you are willing to pay for it.

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As galling as it is, that is exactly the case. Just remember it is to a large part western companies that have these goods manufactured there and sell to their home market while laying off workers and shutting down manufacturing facilities in their home market. On the upside they are increasing their profit margins and dividend payouts. Just remember to buy those dividend paying stocks when you are laid off so you can have a comfortable retirement. Does it hurt when you are being beaten at you own game?

Bob

Henry Ford paid his men good wages as he was right that they would buy his product. That philosophy doesnt exist here anymore. I am shocked that there is even one dollar left here in America.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

Henry Ford paid his men good wages as he was right that they would buy his product. That philosophy doesnt exist here anymore. I am shocked that there is even one dollar left here in America.

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True, old Henry recognized that but he was not without clay feet either Speak Out Now!: The Strike at River Rouge: Detroit 1941 .

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

That may be a sore point but has little to do with whether they can produce a good steel or other consumer product if that is what is demanded of them. Take into account that other countries have been producing good steel longer than the US, does that make these other countries steel better?

Bob

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The question as I understood it was; Why is China's steel inferior to U.S. steel, not can they produce good steel.
As I see it, as stated earlier is that they choose to produce quantity rather than quality in most cases.
I agree every country has premium producers and those who are willing to cut corners to bring in the most revenue.

Economy is sure strange, a friend is buying electronics from China.
If he has it made in Sweden he would pay for a working unit, say $100.
From China he gets them for $10 but then only 1 in 10 will pass inspection.
He still makes more money since the 9/10 scraped units are deducted as expenses.

Lots of good answers, thank you.
It seems that the common responses here are quality control & "extras" dumped into the steel making.
The question, to myself, while writting the OP was, China not capable of producing good quality steel?
It seems that by the responses here, they are, when they want too.

I'll stick with knife companies that run a strict quality control.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Economy is sure strange, a friend is buying electronics from China.
If he has it made in Sweden he would pay for a working unit, say $100.
From China he gets them for $10 but then only 1 in 10 will pass inspection.
He still makes more money since the 9/10 scraped units are deducted as expenses.

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Now that is what business is all about.

Bob

Well, I don't find any problems with the steel in the Gold Dollars. It would be interesting to see a well thought, scientificly done, unbiased "steel smackdown" between the GD and some other razors, just to get a rating of sorts. I have to admit I am not unbiased because I was wowed by my modded GD, and obviously some others are too, and some more others are probably just as biased against them. I think it is obvious that the Chinese can make good stuff with the right motivation. A financial boot up their keesters. The iphone is a great piece of hardware, whatever you might think about the OS. They make great sextants that compare favorably with the best Plath sextants, lagging only by a degree of accuracy practically impossible to notice in most user's hands, and at less than 1/4 the price. They even build pretty good walls, too LOL!

My mentor who was doing the Kreigar experiment gave it a very fair chance to perform and concluded that the steel in that RSO (stamped "China") was incapable of taking an edge even when ground to a proper bevel angle. It's not just histerical hype... that steel really IS junk, proven junk, proven in a very fair test. He took off about 1/4" off the edge and ground it into a full wedge at right at 17 degrees and the edge would not form. He tried various methods of honing and could never bring it past a typical 1k edge. The bevel would not get smooth under the microscope. He says he thinks that other than the Gold Dollar and other rebranded razors from the same factory at Ningbo, this is pretty much what you are gonna get, because the Chinese just don't have an economic incentive to put good steel to use in making razors or RSO's (Razor Shaped Objects LOL!) Now obviously they can make good steel, at least make decent steel, but certainly they are not shy about making crappy steel, either. Selling RSO's never meant to be used for shaving to uninformed blade geeks and not worrying about if it can be useful or not is a pretty good business model for them if it is working. If it wasn't working they wouldn't do it, that's what I figure. Why the Gold Dollar found their nich I have not a clue. Now if we could just teach them how to grind a proper razor LOL! We need for Maestro Livi to take a little working vacation in China, I guess! Maybe he could teach them guys to make a good razor that doesn't need 80 hours of work at the buyer's end to make it shave good and look good. I'm still working on my own mod while enjoying the one I got from my mentor already modded and ready to go.

Another option for them of course would be to import steel, and have a respected and proven alloy to work with. But they could do it cheaper themselves and still get even better steel, if that was their priorities. It's not rocket science. Haven't the Swedes and Brits been making great razor steel for a couple hundred years already? It's not the technical know how that is the problem. You got to make them want to produce the best or equivelant to the best. As long as there is a market for crap and more profit in crap, they will make crap. They go where the money is.

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Originally Posted by TulaneBoy

....I think it is obvious that the Chinese can make good stuff with the right motivation. ...

...It's not the technical know how that is the problem. You got to make them want to produce the best or equivelant to the best. As long as there is a market for crap and more profit in crap, they will make crap. They go where the money is.

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Exactly. A friend of mine ran an architectural railing (iron balusters, rails, gate parts, etc.) and could no longer afford the price of American labor. The Chinese sent a container load of rails and gate parts that were all "off spec" just a little here and there. Nothing consistent, not a horrible waste of time or money, most things could be fixed by the expensive American labor and used effectively. He gave the Chinese company feedback with pictures and specifications. The next container load was perfect and he had to lay off the American labor. They do respond to feedback, just as the Pakistanis do, and their products improve when they realize that crap doesn't sell to some audiences. They realize the value of responding to the customer in some cases.

I know some folks in the blade business in the US who struggle to maintain quality control over the Chinese parts in their products. It requires a significant investment in time and business relationships to keep that line of communication open and protect their product. It also does nothing to stop the company manager, or related ilk, from allowing his "in-laws" to ship completely accurate counterfeits, or really awful knockoffs, out another door of the shop.

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

Exactly. A friend of mine ran an architectural railing (iron balusters, rails, gate parts, etc.) and could no longer afford the price of American labor. The Chinese sent a container load of rails and gate parts that were all "off spec" just a little here and there. Nothing consistent, not a horrible waste of time or money, most things could be fixed by the expensive American labor and used effectively. He gave the Chinese company feedback with pictures and specifications. The next container load was perfect and he had to lay off the American labor. They do respond to feedback, just as the Pakistanis do, and their products improve when they realize that crap doesn't sell to some audiences. They realize the value of responding to the customer in some cases.

I know some folks in the blade business in the US who struggle to maintain quality control over the Chinese parts in their products. It requires a significant investment in time and business relationships to keep that line of communication open and protect their product. It also does nothing to stop the company manager, or related ilk, from allowing his "in-laws" to ship completely accurate counterfeits, or really awful knockoffs, out another door of the shop.

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A decade ago, I was on a plane to the US, and talking to a general manager of a company that produces silicone paste for construction use. They did a lot of business in China. He told me that he flew to China every 3 weeks, and then stayed the week to have meetings, inspect factories, talk to the bigwigs, etc. He said that face to face time was crucial in overall quality control and making things go smoothly. He said the Chinese (in his experience) don't give a damn about specs or things like that. Or rather, They will do exactly what you want if you continue to keep in touch. But you can't agree on a spec via email, once, and then expect to actually get what you asked for. It just didn't work that way.

So spending 1 week in China for every 3 weeks at home was the price he had to pay for successfully doing business with the Chinese.