Thread: So I was gonna buy a Livi but I got this instead...

They did. Search for "howdah pistol". Used as a backup when hunting tigers in India.

9mm is an "any port in a storm" round. Like the first rule of gunfighting says:"Have a gun!" It's not considered the greatest stopper but better than nothing at all. I've always had a bias toward the 1911A1's and .357's and when limited to fully jacketed (ball) ammunition they're a better choice. However, the most important factor is shot placement. A hit in the arm or torso that misses a vital area may incapacitate but not before the bad guy has time to empty a magazine even if that hit is with a large caliber bullet. On the other hand a 9mm or even a .22 rimfire can quickly incapacitate if it strikes center mass and is able to penetrate far enough to sever a major artery or other vital spot. Yes, even a .22 can. Bullets sometimes do things they're supposedly not able to do. One of my favorite targets at the shooting range is water filled Foster's beer cans at 100 yards. Hollowpoint .22 ammo fired from an 18-20" barrel produces some fairly impressive damage considering it's small size and relatively low velocity. I haven't had any real world combat shooting experience and hope to continue not having any but if even a small bullet can tear up an aluminum can then it should be able to do a number on a person.

.50 Desert Eagle (Sorry, I just HAD to...)

I carry a .45 Kimber Ultra Carry as my everyday pistol. I do hear there are doing good things with 9mm ammo now.

~Tye

I read a study a few years back that actually timed 'shot to dead' for many calibers, manufacturers and loads. Hot .45 loads were in many cases 2 to 3 times faster than the .380 and 9mm.
That said, the sweetest(accuracy/action/weight/recoil)pistol i've ever used was the HK P9S .45. Unfortunately, the sucker would jam om the first round every few clips, so I traded it for the Sig 220. Have since used the USP .45 and a 90 series Gold Cup, still stuck on the Sig.
I'd imagine the USP .40 to have less recoil than the illiustrious Glock. I'd also imagine the Livi would shave better than the USP.

The .45 ACP developed its "stopping power" reputation with ball ammo - with a non-expanding round (for the most part), the bigger the hole the better. With good quality, modern ammo selection, your "pistol" round of choice really doesnt matter much. People frequently ask me what the "best" is when they're purchasing a pistol. The answer is whatever is reliable and you shoot a lot. I'd much rather have a model 10 .38spl revolver and a couple of cases of ammo that gets shot all the time then the latest, greatest with a box or two of the super round that only gets shot once every month or two (and thats good for most people).

The pistol is simply a tool of convenience thats easily concealed and carried. Firearms instructor, Clint Smith, frequently says, "A pistol is used to fight your way to your rifle."

"Hm. but in a confused / dynamic situation where you might only get 1 shot in, the more oomph, the better.
I suppose SAS soldiers don't need much oomph because they are trained to be accurate and efficient in stress situations"

"I wonder why noone bothered to turn a 12 gauge into a pistol. "

Heres one that makes the Howdah look like a toy gun. Not good for much, but neat anyhow http://airbornecombatengineer.typepa...adi_griff.html Heres a comical video of the peeps shooting that .50 BMG pistol (something to be said about the gun handling skills though) http://www.biggerhammer.net/videos/birdman_nuke50.mov

Thats why they carry rifles. The MP5 was, and still is a very popular gun for enrty teams (especially in Europe). The 9mm round is much more effective in this gun simply because of its added velocity and the fact you can put multiple rounds on the target very accurately and quickly. The M16/AR series of rifles pretty much dominates the tactical teams here in the USA.

".50 Desert Eagle (Sorry, I just HAD to...)"

Fun gun to shoot, but as you probably know, its not the best choice as a defensive sidearm, mainly due to its reliability issues.

"I carry a .45 Kimber Ultra Carry as my everyday pistol. I do hear there are doing good things with 9mm ammo now."

They do - my personal favorite being the Winchester 127 gr +P+. Unfortunately its a law enforcement only round, which IMO, is rediculous.

I carry a USP 45 and will be adding a P2000SK in .40 shortly. The 9mm however is an excellent round, especially when using JHP ammo. Yes .40 and .45 are going to be a heavier hotter load, but a 9mm is perfectly fine for most applications. The old saying goes better to have 1 hit with a 9mm than 2 misses with a .45. I carry the .40 and .45 comfortably because I am a bigger guy and I practice quite a bit, but if I was not as dedicated to practicing or my employer required me to carry a 9mm I certainly wouldnt hesitate to go with that round.

On another note, a job I may be taking may require me to carry .357 SIG Glock....blah

Originally Posted by JLStorm

On another note, a job I may be taking may require me to carry .357 SIG Glock....blah

If you work in law enforcment in the US, do you get to decide what gun you use or does your employer tell you what to use?

Originally Posted by Bruno

If you work in law enforcment in the US, do you get to decide what gun you use or does your employer tell you what to use?

It really depends, in most larger departments you do not get to choose at all. A lot of smaller departments will let you choose your weapon as long as it is within their specifications and you can qualify with it. Before long due to liability reasons, I believe all departments will issue a specific firearm. Sadly, I dont think it will be long before a department will restrict off duty officers from carrying personal firearms as well...

Ok first off,

That Winchester Ranger SXT is available at http://www.gunbroker.com

I found 50 rnd boxes of 127 +P+ for $21.95
and the increase in shipping on the second box was actual!

SAAMI pressure limits on the 9mm parabellum which is the same as the Luger ( its German and means "for war") are 35,000 PSI = a 125gr @ 1200
+P pressure limits are 38,500 PSI = a 125 gr @ 1250
+P+ has no limit and prob runs around 40,000 PSI and should place a 125 gr @ 1300 or so

Now people who know ballistics know that this is approaching .357 Sig velocity so no one should be laughing at a 127 9mm +P+


btw the .357 Sig is a .40 S&W necked down to accept a .357 bullet, while the 9mm is a .354.

Much of the bad rap that the 9mm has is attributable to some knuckleheads who don't understand terminal bullet performance designing and marketing ammo.
The rest of it is due to the poor capabilities of the 9mm Nato "ball" ammo.

Once upon a time a US government agency decided to do some bullet testing and their idea of a good bullet was one creating the largest temporary cavity, regardless of penetration or retained weight.

They determined that a smaller bullet moving faster made more cavitation (true)
and that the size of the temporary cavity would determine what had been "hit".

Unfortunately, their concept was flawed because rather than everything in the cavity being destroyed, it was pushed out of the cavity by the cavity itself.

Picture a bottle of syrup with a bubble in it.
Now turn it upside down and watch the bubble move towards the new up.
In their experiments they proposed that all the syrup in the way of the bubble had been destroyed.

I'm sure why you can see how this is incorrect.

So, what we ended up with was very light for caliber bullets moving very fast with a bias towards rapid expansion and little regard in design for weight retention or penetration.

It was also proposed that a bullet that passed through had not deposited all of its energy, whereas a bullet stopping inside the target had done a much better job.
Depth of penetration was again not taken into account.

SO, this spawned defensive ammunition like Super Vel 115gr .357 ammo and the Glaser saftey slug.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaser_Safety_Slug

Folks, this stuff is crap only suitable for shooting rats in the basement, don't shoot it for defensive ammo.

With the realization that light for caliber bullets are no good they tried heavy for caliber bullets like the 147gr. 9mm.

These often don't have the velocity required for adequate expansion and tend to shoot through and through acting as solids.

Now with better bullet designs we have 124-127 gr bullets that have the level of velocity required for expansion and the proper design to hold together and continue to penetrate to around 14 inches.

I personally prefer the .357 magnum loaded with these
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=368547
or these
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=257501

loaded over 14.9 grains of Accurate #9 for a velocity of around 1600 fps and 769 lb/ft
They will penetrate five 85 ford truck doors with a retained weight of 75 gr av and shoot cleanly through 1.5 dead deer or about 14 inches of cedar.
(the barnes load a little different than the remingtons, higher pressures mean a .5 gr reduction.)

For you who dare to shoot reloads for defense, I would submit the Accurate #9 has NO flash from the cylinder gap or ports on my .357 in complete darkness.
I would also point out that I am immune to recoil and that these loadings are near max and way too abusive for most shooters or in small revolvers

If I have left gaps or unanswered questions please point them out and I will address them