Thread: Ivory

I've been doing some research since this thread started. The WWF Global (not wrestling) site indicates that poaching, habitat destruction and human-elephant conflicts are responsible for the decline in elephant populations. However, they specifically state that the poaching is the LEAST of the problem. By the way, meat is listed along with ivory as the reason for poaching. It seems that damage to crops and other property brings elephants into conflict for survival with humans and therefore is the biggest problem. The website also states that there are areas where elephant populations are stable and even increasing. Just another take on this situation.

Keep in mind that headlines are sound-bites intended to stir emotions. When you read that "Poaching threatens extinction" it is usually meant to support some new regulation or law which brings more control on activities. Curtailing the use and transfer of 100 yeear old ivory, whether documented or not, will have no effect on anything other than the people directly involved. Neither poaching or elephant populations will be effected.

Keep drinking the kool-aid folks. They've already interupted business and people's lives in this country because of this garbage. Ask Gibson guitars or the owner of Rawsome Foods after they sent SWAT teams in to confiscate property and shut them down over legally purchased wood and raw milk. They have even raided and arrested Amish farmers in PA because they sold raw milk to willing customers. Something that has been FOOD since time began is now illegal to sell or transfer.

I'm with pixel. I'm out of here too.

Originally Posted by WJF

I've been doing some research since this thread started. The WWF Global (not wrestling) site indicates that poaching, habitat destruction and human-elephant conflicts are responsible for the decline in elephant populations. However, they specifically state that the poaching is the LEAST of the problem. By the way, meat is listed along with ivory as the reason for poaching. It seems that damage to crops and other property brings elephants into conflict for survival with humans and therefore is the biggest problem. The website also states that there are areas where elephant populations are stable and even increasing. Just another take on this situation.

Keep in mind that headlines are sound-bites intended to stir emotions. When you read that "Poaching threatens extinction" it is usually meant to support some new regulation or law which brings more control on activities. Curtailing the use and transfer of 100 yeear old ivory, whether documented or not, will have no effect on anything other than the people directly involved. Neither poaching or elephant populations will be effected.

Keep drinking the kool-aid folks. They've already interupted business and people's lives in this country because of this garbage. Ask Gibson guitars or the owner of Rawsome Foods after they sent SWAT teams in to confiscate property and shut them down over legally purchased wood and raw milk. They have even raided and arrested Amish farmers in PA because they sold raw milk to willing customers. Something that has been FOOD since time began is now illegal to sell or transfer.

I'm with pixel. I'm out of here too.

Yes it has been food a long time just like at one time you could go down to your local creek or river and drink the water right out of it. Would you do that now?

totalitarianism, A form of government that theoretically permits no individual freedom and that seeks to subordinate all aspects of the individual’s life to the authority of the government.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

totalitarianism, A form of government that theoretically permits no individual freedom and that seeks to subordinate all aspects of the individual’s life to the authority of the government.

Will jump back into the fray,What Jimmy says is right on,your Government wants totall control on every aspect of your life.
What you can or cannot smoke,drink, or eat.
What was legal yesterday is not legal today, what was illegal last month is now legal in some states (MJ) soon to be all states.
Same gender marriage,gay rights,I could care less if John wants to marry Mike,Is none of my Business,live and let live.
I could care less if people want to shoot up drugs and die,is none of my business.
If the the feds provided clean USP herion, this would not happen,let people live the life they choose to live,if it kills them,so be it.
The cream will come to the top, the gene pool will be a better place.

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Will jump back into the fray,What Jimmy says is right on,your Government wants totall control on every aspect of your life.
What you can or cannot smoke,drink, or eat.
What was legal yesterday is not legal today, what was illegal last month is now legal in some states (MJ) soon to be all states.
Same gender marriage,gay rights,I could care less if John wants to marry Mike,Is none of my Business,live and let live.
I could care less if people want to shoot up drugs and die,is none of my business.
If the the feds provided clean USP herion, this would not happen,let people live the life they choose to live,if it kills them,so be it.
The cream will come to the top, the gene pool will be a better place.

HEY,,HEY !!!! PIX,,,,What Da H***,,,next time throw out a Ted, Steve or a Frank,,,would you,,,

*****For The Record***** my ex-wife's name was Mihaela not Mike,,,

Originally Posted by Hirlau

HEY,,HEY !!!! PIX,,,,What Da H***,,,next time throw out a Ted, Steve or a Frank,,,would you,,,

*****For The Record***** my ex-wife's name was Mihaela not Mike,,,

YEAH! 1+

Originally Posted by Hirlau

HEY,,HEY !!!! PIX,,,,What Da H***,,,next time throw out a Ted, Steve or a Frank,,,would you,,,

*****For The Record***** my ex-wife's name was Mihaela not Mike,,,

You have an Ex Wife??? why, your the perfect guy dude

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

You have an Ex Wife??? why, your the perfect guy dude

HEY! Hirlau almost resembles that remark!

I feel like the ivory issue is very similar to other hot button issues. Its man's intervention in nature is destructive and self interested. If ivory were to be collected only from animals who died naturally there would be a great deal more elephants and rhinos, the price would go up because there wouldn't be as much of it available, but eventually with more animals around the more would be passing on and eventually it would be sustainable. Man's problem is we are inherently inpatient. We want to grow food where there's no water, so we divert water from where it should be to put it where we think it should be. We build cities in the worst possible places. Places known for earthquakes and hurricanes. Why? They are the prettiest places. We stop natural cleansing of the land. Wild fires clear the land of debris and dead trees and plants. Guess what happens when you keep fires at bay so long. The natural stockpile of dead wood builds up to the point that its unstoppable. Guess where people build houses. People like seafood who don't live near the water yet somehow we're depleting the fish out of the ocean. It wasn't so long ago that it was thought that there would never be a shortage of oil and fresh water. Guess what the next big natural commodity will be replacing oil? We don't know what do with nature because no one wants to deal with what might happen if a resource is abused until its endangered. Then everyone points fingers, and the shadowy part of society sees more money to be made on something in short supply hence the black market. If animal products were dealt with on a moderate basis of keeping a population at certain levels as opposed to how much could be made with what is available then we wouldn't have a problem.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Yes it has been food a long time just like at one time you could go down to your local creek or river and drink the water right out of it. Would you do that now?

Spoken like a true bureaucrat! Are you equating water from a river with my neighbor's grass-fed milk cows?

Whether or not I drink creek water is irrelevant, but since you asked I'll say that in a FREE country I am allowed to make my own decisions whether good or bad and face the consequences. Your previous posts indicated that you believed that only "large" dealers would be effected. I intended to demonstrate that any supplier or individual for that matter (even Amish) was open to being raided and prosecuted anytime. They have already done this with private transactions for milk and they will do it with ivory or anything else.

If I choose to buy milk from the farmer down the road whom I know and trust to have better milk than the processed, trucked and nutrient stripped stuff I get from an "authorized" source I'll thank the powers that be to kindly butt out. I certainly trust my own judgement when it comes to my own health and welfare over some lobbyists for large milk producers. I simply used the milk as an example of how far the authoritarianism and control has grown. It is clear that many people have no objections to any amount force being used to impose control for our "safety" or to do good in the world.

JimmyHAD's post says it all.
totalitarianism, A form of government that theoretically permits no individual freedom and that seeks to subordinate all aspects of the individual’s life to the authority of the government.

Sorry this is not about ivory or elephants, but it is certainly relevant to the post about the law that began this thread. My previous post addressed the facts about elephant populations and why the laws were ineffective. I should have stopped at that.