Thread: saber rattling

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

But you must understand,without the war machine,many billions would be lost to american industrys and 100s of thousands of jobs lost.
We cannot stop now,the war monger business is just to big,gotta keep it going.

Sadly, that must mean Eisenhower was correct all those years ago.

Bob

Originally Posted by BobH

Sadly, that must mean Eisenhower was correct all those years ago.

Bob

Yes he was,this country relies on war to keep it going,is no money in peace.
WW2 pulled us out of the graet depression. lot of Jobs, lots of money for the workers.
Than you have all the non-wars since (undelared) they all drive the american economy,Mark my words,in a year, maybe two we will have a need to get envolved in another war,any war just to provide jobs and feed the war machine that feeds industry that feeds the workers.
Sadly, is no way out of the cycle.

Originally Posted by earcutter

Money buys policy here - the pubic be damned. Hence, saying the Americans want it is factually incorrect. I know that they push fair elections around the world bla, bla, bla... but elections are bought and sold here. Many citizens here feel as removed as some feel in fasciest states lol!

From certain point of views that is correct, but the buying and selling happens with the willing participation of the voters. The days of stuffed ballot boxes and direct exchange of money/goods for votes are pretty much gone, or more correctly they exist as a straw-man smokescreen that those who do the real vote purchasing use as a distraction.

The way it works is that more money buys better advertisement and louder advertisement and a lot of votes are based on that. And of course people are convinced they vote the way they do because of their principles, beliefs, self-interests, etc. - that's why it works so well. Choosing to live in a self-selected bubble of ideology beats dictatorship any time.

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Yes he was,this country relies on war to keep it going,is no money in peace.
WW2 pulled us out of the graet depression. lot of Jobs, lots of money for the workers.
Than you have all the non-wars since (undelared) they all drive the american economy,Mark my words,in a year, maybe two we will have a need to get envolved in another war,any war just to provide jobs and feed the war machine that feeds industry that feeds the workers.
Sadly, is no way out of the cycle.

That used to be the way it WAS. No more. Iraq and America's going in alone, has cost us dearly!! I am not sure that wars bill is even on the books yet.

Did some Americans make money? Yup... Not enough to pay for it though. Not by a long shot. Not even close.

Originally Posted by gugi

From certain point of views that is correct, but the buying and selling happens with the willing participation of the voters. The days of stuffed ballot boxes and direct exchange of money/goods for votes are pretty much gone, or more correctly they exist as a straw-man smokescreen that those who do the real vote purchasing use as a distraction.

The way it works is that more money buys better advertisement and louder advertisement and a lot of votes are based on that. And of course people are convinced they vote the way they do because of their principles, beliefs, self-interests, etc. - that's why it works so well. Choosing to live in a self-selected bubble of ideology beats dictatorship any time.

Yes to getting leaders into power. Propaganda machine works well. And really you only have two choices.

Absolute no as to what makes it in the form of a Bill! Which is all that matters.

It’s not that he’s a push over, it’s that no one believes what he says, because he changes what he say with the polls.
There is an election coming and he has nothing to run on, in fact many of his party are running away… from him.

So he will sacrifice American lives to spin his great foreign policy to get votes from the intellectually lazy. He is dangerous… what is sad is he single handedly squandered American lives and influence in the world. He smells the blood in the water and will do and say anything to keep power.

This is what he said in 2007 when he ran. “The disappointment that so many around the world feel toward America right now is only a testament to the high expectations they hold for us. We must meet those expectations again, not because being respected is an end in itself, but because the security of America and the wider world demands it.”

Do you feel more secure 7 years later? Sadly, now the expectations around the world are not that high. The best you got is Kerry and Biden?

Originally Posted by Euclid440

It’s not that he’s a push over, it’s that no one believes what he says, because he changes what he say with the polls.
There is an election coming and he has nothing to run on, in fact many of his party are running away… from him.

So he will sacrifice American lives to spin his great foreign policy to get votes from the intellectually lazy. He is dangerous… what is sad is he single handedly squandered American lives and influence in the world. He smells the blood in the water and will do and say anything to keep power.

This is what he said in 2007 when he ran. “The disappointment that so many around the world feel toward America right now is only a testament to the high expectations they hold for us. We must meet those expectations again, not because being respected is an end in itself, but because the security of America and the wider world demands it.”

Do you feel more secure 7 years later? Sadly, now the expectations around the world are not that high. The best you got is Kerry and Biden?

Actually, I wholeheartedly agreed with him! How can you tell a country to stop doing what they are doing when you yourself are doing it. America sells itself on being the moral backbone of the world. There is a reason we put god onto our money and pledge when the country was founded on separation of church and state.

After a while if you keep saying do as I say not as I do... People stop listening. As was the case in Iraq! This has to stop if America is to be the leader it proposes to be.

Anyway...

As for war, the best way to keep your party in power if history is to believed, is to go to war lol!

The thing is - the world needs to back America now if she is to go to war. America can't afford to do it alone. America be broke... Tax breaks are a bugger hu lol!!

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Yes he was,this country relies on war to keep it going,is no money in peace.
WW2 pulled us out of the graet depression. lot of Jobs, lots of money for the workers.
Than you have all the non-wars since (undelared) they all drive the american economy,Mark my words,in a year, maybe two we will have a need to get envolved in another war,any war just to provide jobs and feed the war machine that feeds industry that feeds the workers.
Sadly, is no way out of the cycle.

I would disagree here. Some would argue that WWII did not end the depression directly. More important was the suspension of the New Deal policies that helped end the depression. The policy changes were brought about in reaction to the war effort but Austrian economics suggests that war was not needed to do that. In fact, Austrian economic theory also suggests that the war machine in and of itself represents lost opportunity. While we may need these instruments of war, they do nothing to further economic conditions since their use is for one single purpose. They do not help bring goods and services to people at better and better prices (the true measure of economic development). Instead they represent resources that were diverted to a purpose that produce nothing in terms of further development. Any politician that uses the war machine to benefit the economy is only benefiting a sliver of the economy and more likely personal investments.

Originally Posted by earcutter

That's just too sweeping of a statement. Actually, now that I have lived here for 7 years, I would say that is factually incorrect.

Its way more complex than I am going to make it, but in effort to keep it simple... Allow me to sweep lol.

Democracy doesn't run the same way in America as it does in other countries. The majority here, the vast majority, can want something and be completely denied it even if the President runs on that platform.

Money buys policy here - the pubic be damned. Hence, saying the Americans want it is factually incorrect. I know that they push fair elections around the world bla, bla, bla... but elections are bought and sold here. Many citizens here feel as removed as some feel in fasciest states lol!



I'll never understand why people think Obama is a pushover lol! The man is dangerous. He isn't saber rattling... no, no. He'll get what he wants - he'll just be smiling as he does it.

Well, I agree partly. What he does is the result of the political process, which still works the way the majority of the people want it to work. Or at least, no majority can be found to change things. You're too busy fighting each other to realize that that is exactly what 'they' want. To compromize is to lose and to cooperate with the enemy ('republican or democrat, depending on your own views) is considered traitorous.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

I would disagree here. Some would argue that WWII did not end the depression directly. More important was the suspension of the New Deal policies that helped end the depression. The policy changes were brought about in reaction to the war effort but Austrian economics suggests that war was not needed to do that. In fact, Austrian economic theory also suggests that the war machine in and of itself represents lost opportunity. While we may need these instruments of war, they do nothing to further economic conditions since their use is for one single purpose. They do not help bring goods and services to people at better and better prices (the true measure of economic development). Instead they represent resources that were diverted to a purpose that produce nothing in terms of further development. Any politician that uses the war machine to benefit the economy is only benefiting a sliver of the economy and more likely personal investments.

I love that . Its like... Duh! Lol!

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

I would disagree here. Some would argue that WWII did not end the depression directly. More important was the suspension of the New Deal policies that helped end the depression. The policy changes were brought about in reaction to the war effort but Austrian economics suggests that war was not needed to do that. In fact, Austrian economic theory also suggests that the war machine in and of itself represents lost opportunity. While we may need these instruments of war, they do nothing to further economic conditions since their use is for one single purpose. They do not help bring goods and services to people at better and better prices (the true measure of economic development). Instead they represent resources that were diverted to a purpose that produce nothing in terms of further development. Any politician that uses the war machine to benefit the economy is only benefiting a sliver of the economy and more likely personal investments.

Read the Book Freedoms forge by Arthur Herman,is about how WW2 put millions of people back to work after the depression.
Read the newspaper today about how 10s of thousands of military people are now out of work.
Beall air force base just north of me is phasing out the stealth Bomber program,this is having a negative effect on many thousands of people in the area.
Granted Iran, afghanistan etc has sucked trillions from the federal Govt,but thats only one side of the overall economy in this country.