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Thread: What is wrong with America

  1. #151
    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splashone View Post
    Yet historically, religion was the incitement to go to war by governments. Many of the millions exterminated by Hitler were selected by....their religion. I think it is a fallacy to separate it out and say that is was a government because the "organs" of religion have historically been religious in nature, to wit, the Vatican was the government (directly and/or indirectly) over most of Europe for centuries.
    The uniform belt buckles of those carrying out "The final Solution" had "Gott Mit Uns" on them. Religion always seems to be involved in sanctifying the actions of virtually any side in a war. If religion is not direct cause then it usually has a supporting role. Pretty difficult to separate religion from war.

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  2. #152
    Senior Member blabbermouth Hirlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splashone View Post
    Yet historically, religion was the incitement to go to war by governments. Many of the millions exterminated by Hitler were selected by....their religion. I think it is a fallacy to separate it out and say that is was a government because the "organs" of religion have historically been religious in nature, to wit, the Vatican was the government (directly and/or indirectly) over most of Europe for centuries.
    Hitler needed an excuse to establish the type of government he wanted,,,, he chose a people (a religion) he could demonize & one that he thought he could defeat. Many of the millions he exterminated could not be assigned a religion,,, so he tagged them with other labels.
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  3. #153
    The Hurdy Gurdy Man thebigspendur's Avatar
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    I think I've said this before however I'll say it again.

    This is much more fundamental than religion. It goes to the nature of the Human Animal. Humans developed to live in small tightly knit social groups with everyone related in one way or another. Encounters with other groups usually didn't have good outcomes. Humans rightly viewed outsiders with mistrust, fear and suspicion. That is hardcoded into our DNA. As world population grew folks were forced to live closely to others and it's only our social customs and governments and laws and yes, religion that allows the world community to exist. But even with this coexistence we still look for differences among people and reasons to mistrust and hate and kill others. Even in highly uniform cultures people always find a reason to think they are superior to the folks in the south or on the east side of town for any number of reasons real or imagined.

    When government breaks down these old behaviors come to the fore as you see all over the world. Even with all the mechanisms in place we still have conflicts on an ongoing basis and every so often the entire world order breaks down. Increasing world population and poverty and food shortages and climate factors will only make things worse.

    I do not see a rosy future for humans.

    So, no matter your opinion on religion it's just another way to separate folks and vilify and demonize them and if it suits your agenda simply liquidate them.
    No matter how many men you kill you can't kill your successor-Emperor Nero

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  5. #154
    Senior Member Splashone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by earcutter View Post
    Though I agree with you - I still hold out hope.

    I hold out hope because as much as "Globalization" has a tendency to create a VERY affluent 1%, globally, wealth is starting to equalize between nations. More people have been pulled out of poverty in the last 15 years than in the history of the planet. That has everything to do with globalization.
    Or wealth will equalize in the 99% at a low level and they will be subjugated by the 1% and we will have returned to a feudal system where religion is just another tool to be utilized in controlling the serfs.
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  6. #155
    At this point in time... gssixgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigspendur View Post
    It goes to the nature of the Human Animal. Humans developed to live in small tightly knit social groups with everyone related in one way or another. Encounters with other groups usually didn't have good outcomes. Humans rightly viewed outsiders with mistrust, fear and suspicion. That is hardcoded into our DNA.

    Bingo, many just refuse to see this...
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  7. #156
    Senior Member blabbermouth OCDshaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splashone View Post
    Yet historically, religion was the incitement to go to war by governments. Many of the millions exterminated by Hitler were selected by....their religion. I think it is a fallacy to separate it out and say that is was a government because the "organs" of religion have historically been religious in nature, to wit, the Vatican was the government (directly and/or indirectly) over most of Europe for centuries.
    Again, I won't try to deny that governments have used religion in their "justification" for the wars they've waged. But I would challenge that the motivation lied more in that of pillaging their adversaries and obtaining wealth than religion. And of course the obligatory mentioning of the Vatican had to be offered up as these conversations normally see. But the most liberal estimates of deaths related to the crusades is ~3M. A lot of what they fought for was land and control of the Mediterranean. But even to concede all of that to religion, it doesn't even compete with the death toll of WWI alone. And that's just war. What of the genocide we've seen without war? The millions that died withing the Soviet Union by Stalin? Cambodia? China? North Korea? Civil wars (ours included)? Even Hitlers motivations were not religious but racial. Just look at the millions of Pols that died in his camps.

  8. #157
    Senior Member blabbermouth OCDshaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirlau View Post
    Hitler needed an excuse to establish the type of government he wanted,,,, he chose a people (a religion) he could demonize & one that he thought he could defeat. Many of the millions he exterminated could not be assigned a religion,,, so he tagged them with other labels.
    Lets face it. Hitlers motivations were racial. The Germans had an entire hierarchy of the races and the place they would hold in the world after the war was over. Jews needed to be exterminated along with some others. Many of the other Western Europeans would be workers or slaves for the more superior races. Many of their victims were of the same faith. It was not religious. It was racial.

  9. #158
    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCDshaver View Post
    Lets face it. Hitlers motivations were racial. The Germans had an entire hierarchy of the races and the place they would hold in the world after the war was over. Jews needed to be exterminated along with some others. Many of the other Western Europeans would be workers or slaves for the more superior races. Many of their victims were of the same faith. It was not religious. It was racial.
    Yes, mostly racially motivated with an overwhelming nod to a particular religion as an identifier. Also included were political opponents including clergy, gypsies, the mentally deficient, criminals and just plain anyone the regime wanted rid off. Religion is always in the mix somewhere to a greater or lesser extent.

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  10. #159
    Damn hedgehog Sailor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCDshaver View Post
    Lets face it. Hitlers motivations were racial. The Germans had an entire hierarchy of the races and the place they would hold in the world after the war was over. Jews needed to be exterminated along with some others. Many of the other Western Europeans would be workers or slaves for the more superior races. Many of their victims were of the same faith. It was not religious. It was racial.
    It was racial but that wouldn't been enough to get majority of germans behind his mission. Religion was a good excuse to get the job done.

    And that is how it's going even today. Your leaders make you want to do something either a) for your religion or b) against some other religion.
    c) or both. And that is how it's always been.

    Even as an agnostic i really lean to understand more and more of those who look more after our original religions and paganic beliefs.

    They were not so much about almighty deity but about various values we tend to respect and follow in our lives. Those old stories were just to give those values a living example. You do not need an almighty god or allah to have moral and the sense of good and bad. But if you want to have something like that to explain your actions, it's ok as well.

    We are responsibile of our lives and acts. We cannot hide behind gods because gods tend to make mistakes too.
    Last edited by Sailor; 11-21-2014 at 09:41 PM.
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  11. #160
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    I thought it was eugenics, plain and simple, with a hefty whack of anti-semitism and just overall hate mixed in.

    Did you know Charles Darwin's cousin, Sir Francis Galton, was the father of eugenics? Darwin himself was said to be a supporter of the idea, as were many of the leading thinkers of the time. Of course I'm not sure they condoned the brand that the Nazis developed but then I am sure that scientists working on early nuclear stuff never condoned the brand that gave us Nagasaki and Hiroshima either.

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