Thread: Massacre at Virginia Tech

What really gets to me when these things happen is that some crazed S.O.B. couldn't just end his own life if he thought it wasn't worth living. He just had to go and kill innocent people that hadn't done anything to him. It's as if people like this believe that they're victims; that their lives failed because of a perception that everybody else was persecuting them and they thought this was their only way to fight back against it. It's really sad especially when many of these shooters give warning signs that are fairly obvious to people that know what to look for.

A massacre indeed, and one that saddens and worries me very much! Especially with the warning signs that the teachers saw in his writings... maybe it could have been prevented. I don't even think I can see him as a human being. I have kids and I may be paranoid but I am afraid for them

I understand he was mad at "rich kids" - and the decay of morals...

I am not sure if he suffered from these, and it is possible that he did. We'll never know, unfortunately. This certainly does not justify what he did.

It just baffles me what can drive a person to do such a thing
Ivo

I heard on the radio the other day that the school knew he had problems and was a risk already, but due to certain civil-rights litigation from the past the schools have no power to expel him from school unless he has already committed a crime or been ordered by a court(?-think that's what they said) to resident mental care, regardless of the risk they presume him to be. So the school HAD to let him keep coming, even after knowing he was dangerous, for fear of violating his civil rights....which, incidentally....he is/was not a citizen, which opens other questions, but still.
Figures.
John P.

Originally Posted by izlat

A massacre indeed, and one that saddens and worries me very much! Especially with the warning signs that the teachers saw in his writings... maybe it could have been prevented. I don't even think I can see him as a human being. I have kids and I may be paranoid but I am afraid for them

I understand he was mad at "rich kids" - and the decay of morals...

I am not sure if he suffered from these, and it is possible that he did. We'll never know, unfortunately. This certainly does not justify what he did.

It just baffles me what can drive a person to do such a thing
Ivo

This is a touchy subject so I'll tread carefully.

From the footage that was aired yesterday, it is obvious that he was a severely disturbed person, but we don't yet know how he ended up like that.

Just to play the devil's advocate: it is entirely possible that he has been picked on by his peers. that, together with existing problems could have been enough to break him.
I agree that what he did is horrible, but perhaps not beyond understanding how he ended up like that.
Combine anger for always being picked on and not fitting in with a feeling of defeat and hopelessness, and this is what happens every time. Maybe without the anger he'd simply have killed himself.

People who have never been bullied and picked on usually cannot understand the impact that has on a persons reasoning and mental state.

Belgium's most famous lawyer Jef Vermassen (who is also widely respected despite always trying murder cases) wrote a book 'murderers and their motives' based on 20 years of study of different murder cases.
It was sold out before it hit the stores. I managed to get a 3d print.
Jef was once scolded by the public attorney that normal people do not kill, and that he'd never have done what the defendant did.
A couple of years later, HE was the defendant in a murder case.

If you think that it is impossible for you to end up like that, think again. There is a murderer inside everyone.

But what amazes me is that a mentally unsound person like him was able to buy 2 handguns.

Originally Posted by Bruno

But what amazes me is that a mentally unsound person like him was able to buy 2 handguns.

There is a background check that all gun sellers (legal) do to check on a person's background. This guy had been ordered by a judge to get mental help as he was a danger to himself and others -----I don't know if this should have been posted so the gun seller would know ---

The bureacracy of government and educational systems always tends to drop the ball and information is rarely exchanged efficiently --- maybe that happened here (wouldn't surprise me).

To me, the guy could of chosen to use a gun, a car, a bomb, whatever to do what he did --- that's the end game but he fell through the cracks for years and nothing was done. He was stalking girls, teachers made note of him to administrators, he was deemed a threat to himself and others by a judge, --but nothing was done.

I think you need to ask yourself what has changed in American society over the last fifty years or so. (1) Gun ownership ? --- no --- guns have always been around and it use to be easier to obtain legally than now (2)family life (?) --- yeah there's been considerable loss there --- fathers not around, lack of respect for the traditional family, lack of respect in general (3) violence in culture? -- yeah --- too much of it I think --- from video games to Hollywood (4) work ethic, sense of entitlement; ? -- yeap --- to me most young Americans think they are owed everything and have a sense of immediate entitlement ---- if someone else has it better than you then it's their fault not yours - anything else ? -- I don't know if anything can describe why this guy would murder 32 people --- but he did fall through the cracks.

On the gun thing, the vast majority of crimes are committed by illegaly obtained firearms. There are no background checks for these and if an individual wants a weapon then he can get it --- just like you can get drugs easy in the U.S. no matter how regulated and illegal they are. The authorities can't even stop drug and illegal transactions within a high security jail ---- for most things regulation is a pipe dream that hurts good citizens who obey the law and promotes and gives power to the criminals who never will. Moreover, it always amazes me how the most visible people who want to regulate guns ( high society liberals and Hollywood types) are the same people who promote things in movies and society that lead to a crumbling of the traditional family and basic societal well being.


Justin

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

... Moreover, it always amazes me how the most visible people who want to regulate guns ( high society liberals and Hollywood types) are the same people who promote things in movies and society that lead to a crumbling of the traditional family and basic societal well being.


Justin

Interesting insight, Justin, and food for thought.

-Lou

The first question that I and several of my colleagues asked when all of this happened was why didn't somebody tackle this kid and beat him dead? I do not blame these kids, and who are we to arm chair quarterback here - but this guy is said to have fired over a hundred times - and the best that anyone could do was to block a door?

It is easy for me to have said that I would have braved the hail the bullets and climbed up this guy and beat him with the bloody stump of his own arm, but truly what was going on here?

The sense of entitlement that Jason was talking about is also a very ironic innate trust that someone will take care of us, that it is the policeman's job to protect us, the governments job to make sure that we are safe - and in a social contract sort of way, it is - but in reality we are all on our own here. We should not and cannot expect anyone in authority to do anything for us - weird thing is that the vast majority of Americans have (since Nam at least) a deep mistrust of the authorities and take them to task every chance we get. But we still remain and are becoming a nation of "sheeple", unable or afraid to take matters into our own hands when it seems the right thing to do because we have been programmed that it is just not right, politically correct or polite. We believe that the villain at the door will go away if we hide, will just leave - be it a shooter or global warming - that someone else will take care of it. It just isn't going to happen.

This reminds me of a recent incident down here in Texas (Burleson I believe) - a school district that hired a safety expert who came in and was teaching kids in a secondary school to *resist* if a gun man came in and tried to hurt any of them - he was teaching them what to do, to throw things, to fight back...the school board received complaints and fired him - it was all over the news. But I tell you this, I am going to teach my daughter to fight, my only beautiful child and the second most graceful woman in my life at 9 months old, to fight with every fiber of her soul and every weapon at her disposal - to control her own fate, and not leave her life and my grace in the hands of any demented, tortured and lesser being.

I saw the tv news article with the father of the lovely young woman who lived modern dance, and was killed - and I died a little with every picture and held back tear. I mourn their lost youth and my own. Spes Es Vigilante Somnium = Hope is the Dream of the Vigilant.

K

One of my friends goes to Virginia Tech. The first shooting happened on the floor above her. I feel sorry for her and the other students; it'll be a long time before she and others feel safe on campus.

Originally Posted by Kriton

The sense of entitlement that Jason (Justin) was talking about is also a very ironic innate trust that someone will take care of us, that it is the policeman's job to protect us, the governments job to make sure that we are safe - and in a social contract sort of way, it is - but in reality we are all on our own here. We should not and cannot expect anyone in authority to do anything for us - weird thing is that the vast majority of Americans have (since Nam at least) a deep mistrust of the authorities and take them to task every chance we get. But we still remain and are becoming a nation of "sheeple", unable or afraid to take matters into our own hands when it seems the right thing to do because we have been programmed that it is just not right, politically correct or polite. We believe that the villain at the door will go away if we hide, will just leave - be it a shooter or global warming - that someone else will take care of it. It just isn't going to happen.


K

Very true Kriton --we saw this in Louisiana when we were hammered by two Cat 3-4 hurricanes (Rita and Katrina). People were waiting for the goverment to say what to do, when to leave, ---- I'm sure some who stayed could not leave but not all --- and many died. And afterwards people were waiting for government handouts and to be saved. People who didn't need aid (I knew a few) were asking for it as if entitled and with no shame (there was a time when people were shamed for needing charity) and all types of waste was amounted.

From some political perspective (from where and for what I do not know) , people are being taught to ignore their rights of self-preservation and personal defense. Everything in your body, brain, genetics, and soul cries out to fight back and stay alive but because of some undefinable force (at least for me), people are being trained to be as you say "sheeple" ---I don't get it and can't see the positive outcome from it --
Is there any wonder why this guy picked a gun free zone to commit this massacre? The ultimate example of a little "utopia" where political correctness is the rule and young people live under the guise of a "gun free zone" and believe others will protect them --- good upstanding citizens will obey the laws but the deranged and criminal never will.

Peace to everyone,

Justin

Originally Posted by Kriton

The first question that I and several of my colleagues asked when all of this happened was why didn't somebody tackle this kid and beat him dead? I do not blame these kids, and who are we to arm chair quarterback here - but this guy is said to have fired over a hundred times - and the best that anyone could do was to block a door?

It is easy for me to have said that I would have braved the hail the bullets and climbed up this guy and beat him with the bloody stump of his own arm, but truly what was going on here?

I had the same thought myself, honestly. If a couple of people, or perhaps even one, had decided to risk it all trying to stop the gunman, how might this look different? Undoubtedly, the first person to try it would be killed, even if he managed to gain enough momentum to knock the shooter down first. But how might things have turned out differently had that happened? If a few people had the courage to make the sacrifice, perhaps ten, fifteen or twenty of the victims may still be alive.

And what about the door barricade? I read that when the gunner tried to enter, he did put his shoulder into it and opened the door six inches or so. He was forced back. He fired the gun though the door, thinking the students where behind it; they had had the forethought to use a table. Why, when he was attempting to force the door, couldn’t someone have stood by the opening with a knife? The gunner would be facing the door opening, unable to effectively acquire a target as he would be straining against the door, probably expecting the students inside to be cowering, anyway. I know that someone, if not several people, must have had pocket knifes. A quick strike to the exposed throat, the spree ends there. Maybe this was the last room the gunner tried to enter before putting the gun to his head and it wouldn’t have mattered anyway; I don’t know. These thoughts have been running through my head the last few days.

At the same time, what you said about armchair quarterbacking is also true. I have never been shot at; I have never seen the person next to me or across the room from me be gunned down. Have you? Unless you have military experience, and perhaps even then, it is unlikely you have experienced anything quite like this, I know I haven't. I know what I would like to think that I would do. It is so easy to imagine myself doing something heroic when I sit here safe at home. It is so easy to paint these elaborate images of how I would know exactly what to do, and would do it, selflessly and without hesitation, just like the hero in the movies. But by the grace of God, I wasn’t there. I have never had to make that choice. I have never had to face that paralyzing fear.

And maybe they did try something. Maybe a few of those students who were gunned down were gunned down running towards the gunner, instead of away. Maybe many of them.

I do agree that we need to be taught to fight back. We do have this culture that says the only people who are supposed to do anything are The Authorities. Recently, I read about an elderly man who was charged with assault or something crazy like that because he brandished a shotgun at several thieves who were robbing his neighbor’s property. I think they were siphoning gas, I cannot remember. This gentleman held them at gunpoint until The Authorities arrived. The thieves were charged with theft; the citizen with assault, or whatever. Even one of the criminals publicly declared that the man had acted appropriately. Eventually the charge against the man was dropped after the public outcry, but the fact that they even considered it is disturbing. Growing up, my parents made it clear that if I ever got in trouble at school for starting a fight, the civilized world would come crashing down on me when I got home. If I ever got in trouble for fighting back (which I would have, if the fight was detected by The Authorities), my parents would have backed me all the way.

-Michael