A question on the constitution

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Originally Posted by prodigy

You guys are right. Let's just all sit in a circle, holding hands and singing songs of joy and peace. That way no one will ever want to hurt anyone else.

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Nobody is suggesting singing songs of joy and peace while holding hands. Terrorists such as ISIS have to be engaged militarily and any prisoner treated to due process and the executed if found guilty. I do not think you would find too many here that would disagree with that. Due process does not include torture no matter how much you or anyone else wishes it did.

If you are chomping on the bit to get at the military action you will have to wait like everyone else while our respective governments get their acts together and decide on a course of action. Democracies can be slow cumbersome beasts in responding to threats. The alternative would be to live in a dictatorship where decisions can be made quickly and unilaterally.

If people want more and quicker action in a Democracy you have put pressure on your elected politicians and let them know what you think. Sitting in a circle holding hands and singing of peace and joy won't get that done either.

Yea, it's frustrating and difficult not to get your knickers in a knot over the issue.

Bob

Yeah right back to the Mercenary International fast reaction force...

Send them in kill the bad guys, and get them out, let the UN sort out the politics after/during that...

If that happens a few times it might end this stuff :)

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Originally Posted by gugi

I most certainly understand that it is complex and have not denied anybody credit. You are extrapolating my words into something that I didn't say. My statement was that US does not have some special moral superiority that was being implied. The world in 18th century was not isolated countries - ideas were flowing pretty quickly around and the same questions that the US founders were trying to answer were asked and answered in many other places. Slavery being one of the big ones, and more generally human rights, the organization of government and so on. US got a chance to make a big sweeping change in the government structure, it did things that for others took decades and even centuries to accomplish, other things others accomplished much faster than US did.
I mean you know all of this anyways.

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Understood. I guess my point is that this ding on the USs moral record has to be be collectively shared but it was far from collectively accepted at the time. So that needs to be accounted for when our moral standing is being debated. And while you personally may not be taking this issue quite that far, many people are willing to portray our history and our moral position in the world as completely tainted as though the entire country viewed slavery the same way and collectively embraced it. For the record I am not putting those words in your mouth but want to remove the issue from discussions on mortality since it was bitterly controversial and resolved correctly internally. While I think it's important to acknowledge it, it's also important to acknowledge its resolution as a country civilizing itself.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Yeah right back to the Mercenary International fast reaction force...

Send them in kill the bad guys, and get them out, let the UN sort out the politics after that...

If that happens a few times it might end this stuff :)

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Not really - the problem isn't these particular bad guys, the bad guys before them who we put in charge were only slightly better. You need to sort the politics first, not after because the real problem is the politics.
We said we're going to hold accountable Saddam Hussain and then when the guys after him did the same crap we looked the other way, and now we want to hold the guys that challenge them accountable?
I say don't touch it unless you're committed to see it all the way through, and since US doesn't have the will or the resources to rebuild Iraq into a country that keeps it needs to get together with the rest of the world it shares those values and address the problem collectively by pulling together more resources.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Yeah right back to the Mercenary International fast reaction force...

Send them in kill the bad guys, and get them out, let the UN sort out the politics after/during that...

If that happens a few times it might end this stuff :)

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The UN can't find its a-- with both hands so sorting it out should be fun to watch.

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Originally Posted by OCDshaver

The UN can't find its a-- with both hands so sorting it out should be fun to watch.

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That's probably similar to the way the Chinese leadership views US politics (e.g. its legislature).

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Originally Posted by gugi

That's probably similar to the way the Chinese leadership views US politics (e.g. its legislature).

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Yeah, probably.

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Originally Posted by OCDshaver

The UN can't find its a-- with both hands so sorting it out should be fun to watch.

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Doesn't much matter, if the threat is dead :hmmm: they can take as long as needed they can sit around and sing Kumbya together as long as the threat is dead

If people are not being Killed Burned Raped sold into Slavery let them sit and talk all they want

yes, IF being the operational word here

US has the best military not only in the world but in the history of the world and keeps doing exactly this - go in kill the bad guys go out - and so far zero success solving the problem this way. Even outsourced parts to mercenaries for Afganistan and Iraq and yet more new and worse bad guys take the places of the dead bad guys.

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Originally Posted by gugi

yes, IF being the operational word here

US has the best military not only in the world but in the history of the world and keeps doing exactly this - go in kill the bad guys go out - and so far zero success solving the problem this way. Even outsourced parts to mercenaries for Afganistan and Iraq and yet more new and worse bad guys take the places of the dead bad guys.

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Yes. That's what a military does. And I suggest that it will have to keep doing that until those societies civilize themselves. Because ignoring it and hoping it will go away doesn't seem to help matters either. Quite the contrary. The US didn't kill any bad guys in Afghanistan prior to 911 yet the issues there ended up here. It's one option but there are other things we can and should be doing as well. But I personally feel that killing people, destroying infrastructure, and crippling economies has it's purpose. Unfortunately our president feels that giving them jobs is the answer. Good night guys. I just popped an Ambien and it's time to call it a night.