A question on the constitution

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Originally Posted by gugi

But what good is removing those individuals if your removal process creates ten times more to take their place? I think that's the question here - not whether beheading people is evil, but how to stop it. I'll try to respond to you, but you are clouding the discussion again Gugi,, I'm a simple man Gugi, but I'll try,,, here's a saying you have heard before, probably, "When you find yourself ass deep in alligators, you can't stop to think about how you should have drained the pond before."

I think we've had a good run with the strategy of 'just start a war kill a bunch of them, capture and torture a bunch'. I'd say we're in a worse place today than when we were at 9/11. It's never been this simple, it was never the plan, this statement is nothing but a frustrated left wing soft pitch.

A couple of weeks ago three young men in Mississippi were sentenced from 7 to 50 years in prison for beating to death a black man. That was caught on video so the truth came out, but they were characterized by their friends as good and compassionate people, good mannered, loving, kind-hearted etc. even going as far as explicitly stating that they are not criminals who should be incarcerated. It took almost 4 years to be brought to justice.
In my mind their actions are worse than a beheading, but apparently a lot of the people who know them personally do not think so.What offends me with this statement is that you assume that I would see this situation any different than you do. His friends & anybody who tried to justify beating any color man to death, are no better than the beaters. just because I have walked a different path in life than you or other members here who advocate diplomacy with evil men, does not mean that I hunger for violence. There are some men in this world Gugi that even the most college educated men cannot reach.

I believe that a reasonable legal process is crucial in defeating evil and resorting to vengeance and rhetoric of the type 'these animals do not have any rights' is counter productive, and I think our recent experience supports that.Evil does not give a hoot about your legal process. Counter productive to what, your conscious?

For example at a certain point in the Iraq War AlQaeda lost the support of the local population and they were driven out. ISIS is strong only because they offer protection of the sunni population from the atrocities and the violence that they used to suffer from the shia militias because the shia dominated government did not protect them.You & everyone else reads the retoric of what is fed to us from media, talking heads of political parties,,,none of us have any idea on the interaction between these groups.

We see an image on the TV, hear the story somebody tells us, and our first reaction is to cry 'kill those animals'. Perhaps it's time to stop, take a second look and try to understand what is going on, whether that story is superficial and does not really explain what is happening. Because unless we do the chances that we'll help a positive outcome are slim.when another man is fueling a caged man, standing behind him removing his head,,,,, when a man is standing on an apartment balcony ready to drop his baby to the ground, the first thought going through the first responder's heads is not, "I wonder what pissed him off." The first thought is the best way to say the baby,,, that's reality."

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I don't know what you have seen or not seen in life, I can see that you have accomplished goals in your life, that allow you to feed yourself & family,, help others in with your chosen knowledge,,, you have friends,,,,,

Because I have taken a path that conflicts with ideals that you have been raised on, does not make me any less of a man or any more violent a man. We both carry tool boxes around with us in life, I would not be able to use your tools, I doubt that my tool would be of use to you.

I have to be up at 8am,,,,,

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Originally Posted by gugi

Earlier in the thread Jericho was brought up and with the help of somebody I found what that is about. The exact quote is from the book of Joshua Chapter 7, verse 21


I mean if that is supposed to be the solution how is it any better than what we're supposedly getting rid of?

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The Bible,,, the most loved & hated book in the world, is comprised of the writings of many men,,, over long peroids of time,,, if I ever get to see the face of God,,, I'll ask him for the straight scoop on many of the quotes accredited to him..

Well I'm not going to bed for the next 20 hours, so I'll write another post

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

here's a saying you have heard before, probably, "When you find yourself ass deep in alligators, you can't stop to think about how you should have drained the pond before."

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Of course, I've also head the one that when you're in a hole you need to stop digging. Seems to me we keep digging ourselves deeper and deeper with this 'war on terror' thing and I don't really care if people call it leftist, rightist or any other label as I do not identify with labels but with the substance of my thoughts.

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What offends me with this statement is that you assume that I would see this situation any different than you do. His friends & anybody who tried to justify beating any color man to death, are no better than the beaters. just because I have walked a different path in life than you or other members here who advocate diplomacy with evil men, does not mean that I hunger for violence. There are some men in this world Gugi that even the most college educated men cannot reach.

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I do not see why would you think I assume you are seeing it differently than me. I am simply making a parallel between the heinous acts that ISIS people commit in the middle east and those that americans commit in US right now. And there were witnesses, so somebody's first thought most definitely wasn't "let's save that poor guy".
Perhaps due to my lack of direct encounters with violence unlike you I see those bystanders, as well as the church leader who characterized one of the young men as 'not a criminal' not as evil people.
But the question on my mind is if the US legal system started with the Constitution can cope with these criminals, what makes the crimes of islamic terrorists such that they need to be handled differently?
At the end of the legal process none of these young men were sentenced to death, or to suffer the same suffering as the one inflicted on their victim. And to conclude the parallel, somehow I do not believe all those people who are fighting for ISIS are the scum of the earth that is beyond redemption.

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Evil does not give a hoot about your legal process. Counter productive to what, your conscious?

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Counter-productive to reducing evil. You, know star-wars the emperor & luke type of thing.

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You & everyone else reads the retoric of what is fed to us from media, talking heads of political parties,,,none of us have any idea on the interaction between these groups.

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Of course, we all do, but I try to not form my view based only on the sensationalist news in the american media which is becoming more and more entertainment and less and less news. I read several european newspapers (I'm including russian there as well), translations from the xinhua as well as from the arabic world.
That's why I engage in these discussions here with people who have different experiences and viewpoints than me.

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

Because I have taken a path that conflicts with ideals that you have been raised on, does not make me any less of a man or any more violent a man. We both carry tool boxes around with us in life, I would not be able to use your tools, I doubt that my tool would be of use to you.

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I seriously doubt that the ideals I was raised on are different from those you were raised on because I know that our top values overlap.
From what I've read when you've posted about your work as a police officer it seems that you have been extremely professional, compassionate and generally seeing the good and bad in people and trying to bring out the good in them. I certainly admire those things and I do consider you (well the image that I have, since I really don't know you that well) as a role model.

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Originally Posted by rhensley

Each to there own. It would be nice if everyone played by the rules. but when they don't. Give them back more than they gave. But that's just my opinion I do wonder however what would have been accepted to have stopped Hitler and his people. They killed millions. anyway like I said each to his or her own way of thinking. have a good day

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Yeah no problem except the US is also torturing and imprisoning INNOCENTS without recourse.
Yeah I think that is wrong.

Don 't complain about the constitution being violated when you agree with half the violations.
Either the constitution is important in all cases, or it isn't. That is why a constitution and a bill of rights exists.
If you're happy with violating it for other people but you expect it's protection when it concerns you, it becomes meaningless.

Interesting thread, and I am guessing that most people now think that more severe measures against groups like ISIS and BOKO have to be taken. The how and when that happens is out of anyone's control in the general public. When the retribution is over it has to be tempered with a good dose of justice for those that survive the retribution or it all turns to crap in the long run.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Interesting thread, and I am guessing that most people now think that more severe measures against groups like ISIS and BOKO have to be taken. The how and when that happens is out of anyone's control in the general public. When the retribution is over it has to be tempered with a good dose of justice for those that survive the retribution or it all turns to crap in the long run.

Bob

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yes. A deposit it is interesting that someone brought up Hitler. Because he was just the figurehead expressing very much what everyone agreed with . What caused the rise of nazism and ww2 was the continued and despicable plundering of Germany by the allies after ww1 . Hitler didn't just wake up one day and decided that total war was fabulous. Come 1935 the allies had it coming to them

So don't think that killing him would have made it better. The real solution would have been not bending Germany over the barrel to rape it.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Yeah no problem except the US is also torturing and imprisoning INNOCENTS without recourse.
Yeah I think that is wrong.

Don 't complain about the constitution being violated when you agree with half the violations.
Either the constitution is important in all cases, or it isn't. That is why a constitution and a bill of rights exists.
If you're happy with violating it for other people but you expect it's protection when it concerns you, it becomes meaningless.

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The Constitution of the United States of America provides protection to the citizens of the United States. Based on what you keep saying, I get the impression that you feel it applies to all people, everywhere. So to me not all people deserve the rights that I have as an american. I'm a second generation american, my grandfather is Russian born who fled from country to country his entire life. He ended up speaking 5 languages by the time he was 15, living in France at the end of WW2. He assisted in helping the Allied forces relocate the many thousands of displaced people in Europe at the end of the war. He then worked for the US government, doing top secret things we will never know. My grandmother was German, and also survived the war. Her father was a German officer, but his passion in life was being a classical music teacher. Many of his students were jewish, and he helped many survive the war. The Russians took over the town she lived in, and the only reason her friends were raped and she was not, was not because my great grandfather was a nazi officer. It was because he was a POW during WW1 in russia, and he spoke fluent russian. She was a member of the Hitler youth, where everything they learned was along the lines of brainwashing. She still remembers hearing the stories at the end of the war about the atrocities that were committed, and it was her belief that the normal, everyday germans, had no idea what was happening to the Jewish people. My family has enjoyed the benefits that America has to offer. They worked very hard to obtain this oppertunity, and had to endure hardships in life that people in today's time can not imagine in their worst nightmares. This brings me back to the constitution, it only applies to US citizens. If you are an illegal immigrant, you have no constitutional rights. If you are a member of a terrorist organization who actively seeks to harm americans, you have no constitutional rights. Do I agree with GITMO, and the tactics and policies used in the last 10+ years, not really. Is it in violation of anyone's rights under the constitution, definitely not.

Really no need to tie the US constitution in with the treatment of terrorist prisoners. Could not The Permanent Court of International Justice handle the prosecution of captured terrorists and hand out sentences? Hopefully that would see that justice is done fairly or at the very least the appearance of justice being done with respect to the rights every human being should have regardless of their origin.

Bob

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Originally Posted by Grizzley1

I am simply asking a question ,not trying to start a discourse. If the president of the U.S. is doing things that go against the majority of public opinion,and are unconstitutional,and the congress does nothing about it,what would be the next action? Is there anything such as a no confidence clause in the constitution? I'm asking because there are some very smart people who belong to this forum,and I'm sure at least one or two scholars

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I don't think government is going to do anything to fix itself. The constitution was not written so things would work that way. It was drawn up so that YOU could change things. To understand this you have to study and understand the words of the men who drafted, and signed it. In those words are what is implied.

Many believe the system is working and to some extent it is. You get to vote for pre picked candidates. They are presented to you by those with money who have power over these individuals. You get to pick between what you think to be the lessor of 2 evils. You still get evil :<0)

I hear words like "the majority of the people think" and I snicker because I don't believe this to be the case at all. A majority of the people don't even vote. If you start talking to people about that you will be surprised at how many actually wish they had something to vote for.

Go on talking about this issue or that, content with a system that breeds greed, prejudice, war, unlawful acts of violence, depression and the like. In the background is a growing desire to change things in a completely different way. The exact way is undetermined only because of the fact that it will be scary, violent, and a hard time, full of sacrifices. Keep pushing the silent majority and the fuse will get lit. Push people to a point where they can't let things continue they way they are and there will be trouble. This is how this country was formed in the first place. This is the background of the document we all discuss with such confidence of understanding.

Smart doesn't fix anything. Yes, there is something in the Constitution that gives you the inalienable right to correct the situation. Not in writing, not spelled out as simple as "now is the time". It is, so drastic, so unthinkable in today's vocal society, that I don't see it happening. Unless of course the powers to be screw up and finally piss off the real majority of well armed citizens. Armed by the Constitution and justified by the Supreme court. The rest is up to the people. Not the people in charge.

I have read much on here as to what the US in particular should do and the Western World included but at a much lesser extent

But what I have not seen proposed by anyone yet is

What are the rules for the Jihadists, I mean so far you all are quite comfortable sitting in your chairs on your computers explaining what "We" should do to solve the problem..

Yet not one of you has proposed what the Jihadists should do... After all we have seen first hand as to how "Warmly" inviting they are to listening to the thoughts in people's "Heads" that disagree with them...

Well ????


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