Thread: Obamacare

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The Right are masters of criticizing and tearing down whatever the left (especially Obama) create. The problem is their solution is "trust us we will sort it out". Thats just code for we have no solution and we go back to the old way which is no way. As long as it puts more money into the pockets of the rich it's good for them.

And the left are masters of doing something over doing nothing when doing something is not always better than doing nothing. Since we are talking medicine, the concept of "first do no harm" should apply. And then of course there are many, like me, that simply believe that this is not governments business to sort out in the first place. Government usually steps in to make matters much worse, then shows up when it falls apart to offer their solution to fix it. And along the way they will drop a few lies about who is really to blame for the mess (never government). Our previous system may have been imperfect, but the last group I wanted to try and solve it was the government. And now every failure of the new system will be blamed on the Right for not wanting it in the first place and all the damage they have done to it. Never mind that it is flawed from the start....and unpopular. But that leads to the next thing. Why was it so important to do this when the people didn't really want it?

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

So are you telling me that the population DID want it in spite of the poll numbers that said (and continue to say) otherwise? Are you saying that everyone DID read the bill before it was passed and that Pelosi's "we need to pass it to see what's in it" statement was again false? And are you telling me that we didn't do this based on ideology? I don't care what the bill was modeled after. We probably have a plan to invade Jamaica on the books somewhere. That has little to do with anything.

Yes, I am indeed telling you that most of the americans do want Obamacare, because that's exactly what the polls say when you phrase the questions on substance without politically manipulative wording (i.e americans like the things in Obamacare, just not 'Obamacare').

I am not saying at all that everybody read the bill before it was passed, but that's how the political process in USA works. Demanding a higher bar for bills you don't like while ignoring that the bills you like are passed in the exact same manner is disingenuous.

It is also disingenuous to claim Obamacare is some extremist framework.
If you step back the fundamentals are pretty straightforward. Things cost and to get something people need to pay for it. You don't go to the store and get groceries jut because you're hungry, but for some reason the american society is not willing to let sick and injured people be denied medical care when they can't pay on the spot for it.

The previous system was tried for a long time and it didn't work; those who had health insurance paid for those who didn't, the insurance companies used any excuse to deny coverage and drop people when they are sick or if they were at a higher risk.
The only way to close the loophole of people abusing the system by not paying while they are healthy and still getting taken care of when they need it is to make it mandatory. And that removes the excuse of the insurance company and they can be required to provide coverage to everybody.

You don't get rid of the police or the military and let only those who are afraid hire bodyguards or live in their own secure compounds. But that used to be how things worked.

If you think there's a better way to provide healthcare feel free to tell us what it is. Perhaps you think everything was just fine before Obamacare and the rising costs far outpacing inflation is not a problem at all. Or perhaps you think the wife of the member who needs 15k in healthcare per year which he cannot provide for is tragic but necessary part of life.
I really want to know what non-Obamacare conservative solutions are out there. Other than putting caps on the liability doctors can face (I guess setting one-size-fits-all limits on how much victims can be compensated isn't too big of a government), and allowing insurance companies from one state to operate in another without being subject to the regulations the second state has enacted for itself (even though local solutions and each state being able to operate independently is often promoted as a conservative value when it helps conservative causes). Because neither of these two solves the big issues.

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Those evil leftists, always mucking things up. If only everyone was right like us! Please consider joining our humble group, The Conservative Likers - Straight Razor Place Forum

Seems to be inactive since 2012...

Well, we fundamental left-wing extremists here in Australia have had medicare (Obamacare, but with the Obama bit replaced by 'medi' which is short for medical referring to the idea that it is to do with medicine and, to a lesser degree, health in general) for quite some time. Since sometime in the 1970s I think.

We are doing pretty good with it. There's a mix of private health insurance with medicare - the idea being that those who cannot afford private health insurance fall back on medicare for some things. It costs the states a fortune but again when it comes to medical stuff private health insurance companies make it quite clear that we are price-takers, not price-makers. So again, where does the blame actually lay when it comes to a cost argument? What's the alternative, where's the competition in this market?

Anyway, I'm personally very thankful I live in a country that values every citizens' health above the almighty dollar. I think that's why they call us the 'lucky country'.

James.

Originally Posted by prodigy

Seems to be inactive since 2012...

They may have committed suicide when Obama didn't lose by a landslide to 1OldGI's cat Buddy in 2012.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Anyway, I'm personally very thankful I live in a country that values every citizens' health above the almighty dollar. I think that's why they call us the 'lucky country'.

Well, if the US dollars were rainbow-colored and made of plastic they probably would be less valuable than some average joe sixpack's health even here

Originally Posted by gugi

Yes, I am indeed telling you that most of the americans do want Obamacare, because that's exactly what the polls say when you phrase the questions on substance without politically manipulative wording (i.e americans like the things in Obamacare, just not 'Obamacare').

So all of these polls are skewed and manipulated? The rest of your argument falls flat for me because I do not see it as a roll for government. And if you think that it was a failure before, I say sit back and watch this one. But as I said before, when it does the government itself will come in to diagnose the problem, blame the tea party, and then offer an even bigger government solution to fix what they broke.

RealClearPolitics - Election Other - Public Approval of Health Care Law

Some funny commentsas far as american healhcare,I used to review detailed Hospital costs as I was in charge of ordering equipment and disposables for my speciality (cardiac Surg).
Now when you go thru a patients list of charges Usually about 30 pages worth,you will see such things as 1 asperin $ 50.00.
One Scalpel blade $55.00 (they cost 75 cents)
Everything today comes in prepacked sterile boxes,at the end of a proceedure 75% of what was in the box (never used) is thrown in the trash.
we used to donate that stuff to 3rd world countrys,cannot do that anymore,it all go's in the landfill

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

So all of these polls are skewed and manipulated? The rest of your argument falls flat for me because I do not see it as a roll for government. And if you think that it was a failure before, I say sit back and watch this one. But as I said before, when it does the government itself will come in to diagnose the problem, blame the tea party, and then offer an even bigger government solution to fix what they broke.

RealClearPolitics - Election Other - Public Approval of Health Care Law

You can click on each link and read the exact questions that were asked - the politics is pretty obvious in question like

Now as you may know, Barack Obama’s health care plan was passed by Congress and signed into law in
2010…
Q30 From what you have heard about the new health care law, do you think it is (ROTATE) – a good idea or a
bad idea? If you do not have an opinion either way, please just say so. (If Good idea/Bad idea, ask And, do
you feel that way strongly, or not so strongly?

The gap is when the questions are about specific provisions of the law.

We're all sitting back and watching. It's been over 6 years since Obama started the job and we're still waiting for the sky to fall any moment. He keeps killing jobs, tanking the economy, running off the businesses out of this country and yet the markets are high, the oil is cheap, the unemployment failing and the wages roughly stagnant like they've been for decades.
If this is radical totalitarian communism it ain't all that bad as we were told.
But yea, I'm sure the doom is going to happen any time now.

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Some funny commentsas far as american healhcare,I used to review detailed Hospital costs as I was in charge of ordering equipment and disposables for my speciality (cardiac Surg).
Now when you go thru a patients list of charges Usually about 30 pages worth,you will see such things as 1 asperin $ 50.00.
One Scalpel blade $55.00 (they cost 75 cents)
Everything today comes in prepacked sterile boxes,at the end of a proceedure 75% of what was in the box (never used) is thrown in the trash.
we used to donate that stuff to 3rd world countrys,cannot do that anymore,it all go's in the landfill

Thank you for that explanation and it explains a lot. Canadians travelling to the US are foolish if they do not buy extra private out of country health care insurance. This is because the Canadian Province which runs your particular health care plan will only reimburse you for services rendered in the US at the rate they would be costed at in Canada. Have a heart attack in the US without the additional coverage and you are liable to loose you house to pay. That is how big the difference is.

Bob

In my opinion, the true intent of Obamacare is to transition the middle class to government assistance. I'm sad to say that it hit me in an instant last fall; I contacted a health insurance agent to see about getting some alternate quotes for my individual health insurance I pay for for my family.

The agent suggested something that, quite frankly, was shocking to me: He suggested that my wife and I purchase a new health insurance policy for ourselves and he said, based on our income, our kids would most likely qualify for medical assistance; which is the same program that those on welfare have for their medical needs.

My opinion has always been and will continue to be, that "welfare" is intended for those that, due to age or severe physical or mental limitation, are literally not able to work for themselves. It's a way for us as a society to "take care of our own". Welfare is not for anyone else that is able-bodied enough to work. I have told my wife many times that if I had to work four jobs in order to keep us off welfare given that I am an able-bodied person, that's what I would do.

The thought of putting my kids on medical assistance even if it is possible for me to do so under Obamacare is abhorrent to me. And I won't do it.

I do not consider my self to be wealthy by any means. I am therefore shocked that now apparently I am in an income bracket, a middle-class income bracket, in which my children are eligible for medical assistance coverage through the government.

Chrisl