What do you guys think about Tim Cook's stand on user data privacy against FBI requesting for access? Here's the letter that Tim Cook posted.
Customer Letter - Apple
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What do you guys think about Tim Cook's stand on user data privacy against FBI requesting for access? Here's the letter that Tim Cook posted.
Customer Letter - Apple
Like everything else x number of people will have to die and then they will come around.
I don't agree with that. Hundreds, even thousands could have been killed and it still would not be right to create a back door. If they do, it will crush their control over the market because no one wants a device that yields so much personal information that could potentially be readily available to anyone wanting to look. I really like the analogy they use in the article in reference to a "master key". If the fbi can't figure out everything they need to know without that phone, then I think there is a larger problem at hand.
The FBI wants Apple to build a backdoor to all iPhones not just the one in question :deal:
Really ???Quote:
Originally Posted by prodigy
If Tim Cook's family was at threat or one of the dead,, that "back door" would already be sitting on the FBI's front door step. It's all about the money & the market's perceived privacy with that device.
I personally think they need to provide the ability to decrypt. I have been involved in multiple investigations where the information can truly be critical, or provide closure for a family in understanding what happened to their loved one. While I understand that some people have critical work information on there phones (myself included) I just think law enforcement should have a work around. (obviously under current warrant requirements)
You find someone dead in a vehicle on a lonely road and as an investigator you exhaust all your leads and there sits the phone....GPS information on where they have been, who was the last person they talked too, texted, Picture they took, facebook post...and you cannot see it because it is completely inaccessible.
About two years ago I worked a suicide and the suicide note was on the individual's computer. Luckily it was still pulled up and accessible. His final words to his children, family. SO..... I think it is important to be able to get the data.
This isn't something they can just pull out of their *** and say "here you go". It would take a team of engineers months to write the code. Then there is testing and tweaking. How many people that have replied actually read the article?? They would be handing over the holy grail of private information collection capabilities. Oh right, it's for law enforcement and the government, we all know they would never use it inappropriately....
Then once it's out there, you know all the top hackers around the world will work 24/7, 365, until they have it too. Too many people are too willing to give up their privacy and the privacy of others. Bad things happen in the world, they always have and they always will! Futile attempts to limit the harm done by giving up individual freedoms is going to do more harm than good in the long run, even if it has a positive short term outcome.
You bet your butt they already have it!! and yes I read Tim Cook's letter.Quote:
Originally Posted by prodigy
He was served with a federal judge's order to produce it, if he "admits" to having it & does not comply with producing it by the required time,,, he get's the Front Door of a federal holding facility until he bails out or the order is over turned.
The person who invented the encryption , can open it any time , anywhere he or she wants.
Have you lost family members to terrorist. Would you feel the same way if you did loose a family member. We have hackers out there that get into the personal info of a lot of people. Wouldn't it be in the best interest of humanity to help stop terrorist. Wouldn't that be a feather in Apples hat. I'm all for privacy but if i have info. or can help gather info to help stop even one terrorist attack i would gladly help. Now this is just my opinion each person is entitled to theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by prodigy
Well we can agree to disagree. "The person who invented it" can't just pick a phone and press a button and magically unencrypt it. This would be ridiculous, and negate the point of encryption. If that was the case, they would do it! They (fbi) want the ability to backdoor that one specific iPhone. This would be available for all iphones, not just a specific one. I'm gonna go ahead and step out of this thread now, it should be a very interesting one to follow though.
People like Tim Cook have no need for feathers in their hats,,, they would rather have a dollar in the wallet.Quote:
Originally Posted by rhensley
That's the thing, the attack already happened, so they aren't preventing anything. They would be opening up an entirely new platform for terrorism to occur. How would you feel if you stopped one attack, but the means used to do so led to hundreds of more attacks that wouldn't have happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by rhensley
I'm a United States Marine, so yes, I've lost family to terrorists. I despise the tactics they use. I wish it was possible to wipe them all out in one go. The problem is that isn't possible. Terrorists are people, with families and friends. For every one you kill, you create a dozen more seeking revenge...
A what if question. If Mr. Cooks son daughter or grand child was held by kid nappers and the kidnappers lost there apple phone in the process. I wonder how quick Mr. Cook would create a back door. The US is suppose to be a nation of laws. If the police went through the correct process in obtaining the the legal order then Mr. Cook should comply. again just my opinion. When the very rich or political elite thumb there noises at the legal system they should be held accountable. again just my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirlau
There have been wars there is a war now and there will be wars in the future. History has proved that. I wish it weren't so. Your a US Marine. God bless you and all service men and women. Be ever watchful .Quote:
Originally Posted by prodigy
As I read through the post by Tim Cook, part of the rational used is that by creating a solid back door it leaves a point for hacking as well. It is not as simple as to just them having access. I would think that it will take more consideration than just about the FBI having access. If it was simply the FBI and there was some guarantee that it would be absolutely only the law authorities in our country that could exercise this access, they can have it. As for it being a security risk, that is where I get a little apprehensive.
Completely ridiculous that anyone in our government can demand a company that is ran by someone other than the government and had nothing to do with the crime to do anything. They simply sold a phone to a cell phone provider, that sold it to a individual. If the FBI can't break into a phone, maybe they should look at hiring some new folks. Slippery slope to say the least. All bad IMO. Even more so if the criminals were alive. They should also work on hiring the right amount of people. They are terribly undermanned and the government doesn't seem to be doing anything about it. They want want want when its convenient but god forbid they do anything in a timely manner that helps the country.
You guys talk about the all mighty dollar... take a look at your government before we talk about others and money.
I'm a Marine too,,, but we are sliding off topic just a little.Quote:
Originally Posted by prodigy
Nailed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by prodigy
It's spot on, I was asked a very personal question and I answered it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirlau
Your off topic with the opening post,,,,,:shrug:
If info on the phone could lead to a terrorist cell and prevent another 911 or the attack in Paris or help in a broader way against terrorism i think it should happen. As far as the government wanting and wasting more I hold our politicians responsible for that and ultimately ourselves for voting them in and keeping them there forever. Everyone has there opinion on this matter with good points. pro and con. For me it has been a good way to vent.
:soapbox:Where do we draw the line on our rights to privacy? I,m for almost anything to prevent or apprehend these so called people. But at what cost?, we find it outrageous to torture these people to get this info, but we are now willing to give our sacred right to privacy away to do the same. What a world we live in, but if Apple is in the wrong, then who is in the right?, we can go at this for all of eternity and the fight against terrorism can only be won by the side who is willing to part with their humanity to win. Off my soapbox now, cause I get riled up pretty easy when it comes to things like this. Tc
Wow, really?? My first paragraph was spot on with the opening post. I know, why don't you go through every thread and quote every person, every time they say something off topic from the OP. Come let me know when your done. Tim Cook will probably still be standing up for what's right by the time you're done.
Looks like you have lost the ability to communicate friend,,,,,,,
There's nothing in my iPhone or yours,, that's worth a human life,,, bottom line.:shrug:
Their is nothing on my phone or anyone else that the government deserves to have access to if they can't get it themselves because they deem it necessary to save a life. More importantly my freedoms shall not be taken because the government wants it their way. I have seen bloodshed first hand and I am not entertained by their "needs". All the men who died in a war for this country would differ that it is in fact worth a life. Privacy is freedom at the very root.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirlau
A couple of things need to be understood here before we get back to the letter at hand & the tactics being used on both sides to get what they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redcane
This is not a chest beating contest on Patriotism,,, I too am a veteran, from a long line of veterans, we have seen it all too.
The government is not my enemy now, nor when I actively served. The same men & women who work for the government we are bashing here, have veterans in some of their families.
Don't put words in the mouths of our dead to justify an opinion here, not right,,, not fair to me & others to who believe as I do, on the letter.
I would like to think that I am wrong but...
I think Apple has a back door and they use it. I would be surprised if they haven't already given the government access. I think it is just posturing by Apple to be able to say the government made me do it.
I consider anything I do that involves a computer and that includes my TV and my refrigerator,,,,,, is public knowledge.:shrug:
Blackberry was told by several governments all over the world to hand over access to their encryption system. Blackberry said....no way. It all boils down to privacy rights of an individual whether we like it or not. With great power comes responsibility too. I have nothing to hide on my PC or smart phone.... but I no one has the right or business in looking what I do have on my personal devices either unless they were used to commit a crime. Big time grey area. Privacy of an individual or security and safety of a nation? That is the question. If Apple does find a way to bust into this phone.... They would be best to keep it very quiet and it's dumb that the FBI advertised this in the first place. Not very covert.
In regard to the letter, I truly believe that the "government " already has the capability to breach the Apple encryption. I'm quite sure the NSA has everything that iPhone in question can yield.
The FBI, may not have access to it or more likely they do :shrug: & they will need the subpoena process to be successful to preserve the integrity of the investigation as it goes further.
If others are brought forward into criminal prosecution, there is an endless line of attorneys waiting to cut their teeth on this action.
Apple has to put up his front for marketing purposes & they have done well by pitting Patriots against each other as we are here,,, over an important right such as privacy,,, so sad.
Just don't look in my closet,,,,,:rofl2:Quote:
Originally Posted by 32t
I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth. Privacy is the root of freedom and many have died for this very thing....they all involve privacy (see revolutionary war). It's a fact, not an opinion. Them bullying Apple and taking that freedom/right is what is not "fair" as you would say. I am not anti government either. I am anti them taking whatever they feel is right. I am active duty so that would make me a card carrying member of Uncle Sam. If you think this will actually stop or fix anything you are sadly mistaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirlau
Having a family member or friend in the military doesn't mean anything to me unless it's a spouse or child. Most of the me making the decisions are old enough to have had children in the civil war. I am not bashing them I am saying they can do better and we don't hold the, to a standard as it is.
As far as chest beating, rhensly asked "have you lost family members to terrorist". That led into me explaining I have I fact lost people and people have died way before all this.
You will never convince me one cell phone will make a difference.
Thanks for the debate men. It was fun.
And no hard feelings, debating is healthy. I am here for the razors.
How many bottles of Clubman do yo have in there????:rofl2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirlau
There you go,,, off topic too,,,:shrug:,,, now you got me off topic , as its 8 minutes in to Clubman Friday.
Forgive me Prodigy,,, for I have sinned,,,,,:rofl2:
Just ask Snowden he knows. They can get anything they want and the truth about why they want a backdoor will not be revealed to us commoners.
So some terrorist buys a straight from me. The FBI finds all kinds of friendly chat between us and some joking around I don't know could implicate me in some crime I know nothing about. FOUL !
They start to look at me and being a closet writer I have started a book about a guy that kills half of congress. I end up at Guantanamo getting water boarded ? FOUL ! If you can assure me none of this would happen if they get their back door then let them have it. However I don't trust anybody enough to believe that assurance.My pc holds a lot of my thoughts and that's all they are and nobody else's business PERIOD. Bad people kill good people, such is life. You want in my phone shut up about taking away my guns . Even trade :<0)
Anyone have Direct TV or Comcast? The system is totally secure locked by algorithms. How many folks would want to hack those sell black market boxes. They have no problem keeping that a secret as do many other companies that make products locked by technology. Cell phones are just one example.
Oh I know it's private corporations and they are our friends and can be trusted but the Govt is the enemy and can't.
Give me a break.
I don't think a lot of the posters in this forum have actually taken the time to both read the letter and also do research (or already have knowledge) about the extreme level of encryption of the iphone in order to make it the most secure device possible. The problem the FBI (& NSA, & whatever other 3 letter organizations we've never heard of) now have with hacking into these devices is that each device is individually encrypted with a combination of software & hardware encryption that makes it impossible to brute-hack. Even if you could bypass the hardware aspects (which you can't... the device becomes unusable and the hard drive is worthless) it would take a supercomputer up to 6yrs to brute-attack the software password of a standard 6-number pin. If you use a longer password or add alphanumeric characters it multiplies that length of time exponentially for each character added. Also, there is no single encryption key - each individual iphone has a "secure enclave" chip that is tied to the hard-drive and the touch ID fingerprint scanner - if you try to remove/replace any of the three from each other the phone is rendered useless (Apple is currently facing a lawsuit because of this - unauthorized third party shops were replacing Touch ID fingerprint sensors when replacing a broken screen if they damaged the cable in the process... the Touch ID fingerprint identification abilities were immediately unusable, but you could still log-in with the password/pin, however when you tried to update the software the entire phone would become "bricked" with the processor identifying that you were trying to update core-level software after altering a key security component of the phone that has access to the secure enclave - this was programmed this way by Apple so a hacker couldn't replace the Touch ID sensor with something that could "read" the encryption keys from the secure enclave and then let you upload software to the phone to let you bypass the other security features). What the FBI is demanding (and a judge has issued a warrant for) is that Apple MUST write a new version of iOS software that can be installed on a phone without the password authorization from the user and that then allows you to bypass all the hardware and software protections. This would render all the security for ANY and EVERY iPhone useless if it got into the wrong hands. "That's fine, I don't care if the FBI wants to search my phone, I have nothing to hide and if you're a law-abiding citizen you shouldn't have anything to hide either... if it can help prevent a terrorist attack it's worth it." The fact is, if this software existed and then leaked or the backdoor was discovered by hackers it would make identity theft a piece of cake. It would make hackers and terrorists able to obtain classified information and the GPS location of any President, Senator, Congressman, Judge, CIA/NSA/FBI operative, etc, who uses an iPhone, thus enabling new types of targeted terrorist attacks. It would also allow those hackers or terrorists to gain information on those same people and also employees of the CDC, or other people with access to weapons, explosives, diseases that they can blackmail those people with (hack into the phone of a janitor/employee/scientist in the CDC, find out he is having an affair, tell him if he doesn't get you a petri dish growing Ebola that he'll tell your wife and ruin your marriage... or use the GPS coordinates of one of the scientist's kids' phones to kidnap the kid and then demand the same)... on and on and on... this would open up a can of worms in ways no one has even thought of yet in the wrong hands...
...and speaking of wrong hands... if the US Govt can demand and force Tim Cook to make Apple create this backdoor and write the iOS software to allow the FBI, etc, to hack any iPhone... then why can't the British government demand to have it too? ...and if the Brits have got it, by golly, well the Germans are going to demand to have it as well! And next time Tim Cook flies to China for the opening of a new Apple Store he is arrested in the airport and China presents him with a warrant for him to give the software to CHINA, and CUBA, and of course Putin and the Soviets are going to want it as well... and probably worst of all, North Korea... and Tim Cook will be thrown in a Chinese jail until he hands over the software. If the US can demand this software and take away every one of its own citizens' right to privacy, well why can't China? why can't Putin? why can't the Kim Jung-Un?
Just cut off their thumb and use that, seems obvious.....
A tough situation with no easy answers. One thing for sure is that terrorists have succeeded in greatly altering the way we live our lives. Amazing how much people are willing to give up just to "feel" more secure.
Bob
Obviously a joke, but I'll answer as if serious, anyway. First, obviously that wouldn't be legal and the knowledge gained would be inadmissible in court and anything leading from that knowledge would be "fruit of the poisoned tree", so any cohorts you found out about couldn't be arrested. Second, there was a recent case where the Police did in fact want to force a suspect to put his finger on the fingerprint scanner to unlock the phone, but the judge ruled that this was illegal, for the same reasons you can't force a suspect to tell you their password or safe combination. Thirdly, iPhones require a password input every time the phone is rebooted and then every 48hrs, so even if you got a judge in a higher court to overrule the former judges' ruling that you can't force someone's finger onto the fingerprint scanner, all the guy has to do is either hold out/delay things for 48hrs or hold the power button to shut the phone down either as the cops are catching him or when they hand him the phone to force him to unlock it with his fingerprint, i.e. "oops, I turned it off by mistake... my bad." Finally, the phone is programmed to force a password input after a certain number of unsuccessful tries and then there is also a setting to erase the phone after a certain number of unsuccessful tries, so all someone would have to do is only program Touch ID to work with an unusual finger (one of the pinkies, for example) and when the cops would force you to put first your indexes on the button, then the thumbs... then... well, now you're locked out and it's forcing a password input.Quote:
Originally Posted by jfk742
As a final add-on to my former post, if the court is successful and they arrest Tim Cook, and all the Senior VP's, and all the iOS programmers for contempt of court for not complying with the warrant and writing this piece of software and creating the backdoor to make it useful on any phone (which by the way, is a very, very scary thing... can the FBI then arrest the best scientists/designers in the country and force them to design the best weapons "to fight crime with"? Could they have arrested and imprisoned the scientists of the Manhattan Project if they had stopped work on the Atomic Bomb for moral reasons, saying "this court order says we can arrest & imprison you until you finish work on the Atomic Bomb and give it to us, to win WWII"... that's exactly the kind of persecution many of those scientists fled Nazi Germany because of to begin with!)
So lets say the court maintains this warrant and higher courts support it and Apple keeps fighting it all the way up to the Supreme Court and even they support the warrant and Tim Cook and Co. are arrested/imprisoned until they comply to write this piece of software for the FBI/CIA/NSA, whoever. "Of course everyone in the Government is going to keep it safe and only use it for good." That's fine, let's say we all believe that. Tim Cook, Sir Jony Ive, and all the other Apple VP's and iOS designers don't walk around with Secret Service protection. All a group of thugs have to do is kidnap one of them and torture them (rip off their nails one by one, then start cutting off & cauterizing toes, fingers, etc.) until they give in and grant them access to a copy of the software. If done at the right time, it could be hours or a day or two before anyone notices they are gone and notifies the Police. The thugs then use the software to unlock Tim's/Jony's/whoever's iPhone as Proof of Function and proceed to empty their bank accounts - that's the first several million dollars right there. Then they use those millions to flee the country and proceed to sell the software (with news now out of the kidnapping and emptying of the bank account as Proof that the software works) on the Black Market for some more... millions? bilions? How much would countries like China, Russia, and the Middle Eastern Governments each pay for this kind of power? How much would Al Qaeda pay? How much would hackers? And this is software, so they can copy it and sell it to whoever wants it. How many millions of people would have their identities stolen?