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Honestly here, and I'm not dissing anyone but from the viewpoint of an American unless he has studied European History and Economics thoroughly the idea of the EU is anathema and totally against just about anything most here believe in especially Right Wing leaning folks. I don't think folks here in the US get the EU or have ever gotten it. They may think they do but they don't.
The more I read the less I think anybody understands it Spendur :<0)
Well, most americans don't understand how their own country works, many can't even express themselves coherently in English, but this has nothing to do with nationality - everywhere people are the same and you can find the full spectrum covered anywhere you go.
I'm pretty sure Robin knows the meaning of hegemony - I think he's maybe forgotten it.
Also, Robin seems to be under the impression that Phrank is British - am I correct in thinking that Canada is his home place?
Yes and Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by UKRob
Bob
Absolutely not. The fall of the British empire ("hegemony"), and the vacuum of power which it left after WWI played a crucial part the rise of boh Communism and National Socialism. How could a German ever forget?Quote:
Originally Posted by UKRob
It does not really matter. I resent the anti-German propaganda either way, especially because it is so blatantly false. As stated several times previously, the UK's problem right now is not Germany, but France, or Belgium. Here is a nice article that neatly sums up the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by UKRob
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by THORandODIN
You are.Quote:
Originally Posted by THORandODIN
These "folks" being who exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by THORandODIN
Which is why the UK joined under Margaret Thatcher, I presume? Yes, that makes perfect sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by THORandODIN
Who decided that the USA would be a good thing? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by THORandODIN
As to your post: no. The weaker members are the ones desperately wanting to join because they want a level playing field and access to the single market. And funnily enough, the UK was one of the ones who pushed hardest to get Eastern European countries to join.
European history proves conclusively that a Europe consisting of independent sovereign nation states is doomed to be at war with itself. I am very much in favor of my country being part of the EU because being bound together like this has stopped us from warring among ourselves for an unprecedentedly long time. 70 years of peace on the continent is worth it, and the EU costs less than internal wars would have cost.
And that's all I have to say about that.
I guess the colonials in the US thought it was a good thing.
No Taxation without Representation
It just boils down to people feeling they do not have enough say in what happens in their own neck of the woods and want out from under what they considered was oppressing them. In the US case you had Colonies leaving the British Empire to form a country. In the case of the EU you have a country leaving the EU to regain it's independence from another external entity.
It does not matter if the grievances are real or not, depending on your pov, but just that they are perceived to be. Not making any judgements in either case.
Bob
Actually, I have one more thing to say: has anybody here bothered to read article 50 yet?
Bascially, it forces the leaving country to negotiate terms in 2 years time. Not the terms for leaving, but the terms for dealing with the EU afterwards. The UK exports almost half of its stuff to the EU so they desperately need trade agreements. And they have precious little to bargain with. After 2 years, their membership can expire without deal, which would cripple the it. The UK does not get to be part of the EU concensus or decision making. In practical terms, it's a take it or leave it affair.
Now, they NEED the trade with the EU. But they cannot and will not get access to the single market without free movement. So at BEST they will get a Norway type deal, where they still need to comply with all EU regulations and allow freedom of movement, but they will no longer have a rebate, EU subsidizing, or a veto in the decision making process.
Meanwhile the brexit figure heads have all withdrawn or refused to take a leadership role. Because they never actually wanted to win. They wanted the leverage of the protest vote. The never accounted for the possibility of actually winning this vote. So now they are screwed. Bad. The gbp has dropped 22% and counting. And that is with people still hedging their bets on whether the brexit will be avoided or not. Economy is already slowing down, people are running for their money, heads of industry are calling their MEPs to tell them they need immigrants coming in.
The fact that even Nigel Farage suddenly quits as ukip party leader, just when his dream is about to come true, should tell you everything there is to know about the viability of an actual brexit. The fact that Boris Johnson looked like he was stabbed, on the day of his victory, and the fact that he now refuses to become PM, should tell you everything you need to know about how rosy the outlook is, should a brexit happen.
Oh and the EU, with almost unilateral power during the negotiations, is looked at with scrutiny as to how it will deal with this precedental case. Populists who want to organize their own referendum in their own country are looking at how the UK will fare. So don't be expecting a golden parachute being handed out the UK. If they go through with this, I suspect they will be made an example of. They will not be crushed economically, because that would be bad for everyone, but I bet anything that they will be off far worse than they were now.
I don't know much about how much of this is reported in the US, and in what manner. But I have a good number of friends in the UK, and I follow the news closely from different sources. Basically: the UK screwed itself so bad it will hurt for decades. I know it, they know it, Cameron knows it, and even Johnson and farage know it. All that remains to be seen now is whether the brexit will actually happen. That is still not a given. If it doesn't, then the UK has lost all moral authority and any basis for negotiating future deals. If it doesn, then the GBP will drop a lot further, and things will turn much worse for the UK.
And they'll still have to follow all the regulations if they want to export their 50% of their gdp to the EU, but will have none of the perks, none of the veto power, and be left with an economy that will be hurting for a long time.
Absolutely. Perceptions and emotions are what caused the vote to swing this way. Not facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobH