Apparently the vote was to get out.
Now comes the harder part of actually doing it.
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Apparently the vote was to get out.
Now comes the harder part of actually doing it.
On the up side, Scotland will join the EU this afternoon, or shortly afterwards. Welcome!
What is extremely surprising, is that the majority of those that voted "out" are people over the age of 50.
Guess whose retirements savings have been hard hit by the "out" vote? Yes, those same over 50's!!
Next I foresee both Scotland and Ireland having referendums for independence and then voting to be part of the EU!
I don't think it's that easy for Scotland and NI. They have no central banks and use Westminster for a lot of the trade they do. The EU may well want them to operate independently and meet certain criteria before they get accepted. Also any independence would be lost. As they would have to join on new members terms. So no nice bonuses like the UK got, Enforced Euro currency, And whatever border controls the UK requires. Also no NHS.
Then comes the really odd part. Scotland has based it's independence on oil. The oil however is mostly in the north sea in Shetland waters. And Shetland may well not want to be part of Scotland. This island will need it's own independence vote, and may well elect to become part of England, Norway or Denmark. Denmark have a very good track record with the Faroe islands, and Norway already has a thriving oil business.
It's like someone kicked a wasp nest over here atm on social media!
A great day for the UK one where we took back our country I'm overjoyed.
This pretty much sums up how I feel :y
The people have spoken. Now it up to the government to make it happen. Governments don't always do what we want them too.
We had something similar happen here when Quebec wanted to leave the rest of Canada back in the 90s, but then vote went the other way by the slimmest of margins.
This should be an interesting to see how this can of worms that has been opened finally turns out. What I could not get over was the surprise by the stay side at the final result. They must have been very far out of touch with the feelings of a large group of citizens.
As far a Scotland joining Denmark this afternoon goes, good luck with that one. I believe it will take another referendum and other steps to accomplish that.
Good luck to all involved.
Bob
On his recent visit President Obama urged people in the UK to vote remain and some campaigners took this as an opportunity to compare the EU with the USA - claiming they were similar. Whilst there may be some similarities - and gripes about big government etc., what tended to be disregarded is the fact that the USA has a common history, mainly common language and culture etc.
The EU comprises 28 different countries with hugely varying economies, historical ties, languages, culture and aspirations. A closer analogy with the USA would be for it to be part of a pan-American Union that allowed free access and welfare rights for the citizens of every country belonging to the union. This is what it is actually like in the EU - low price eastern European workers can flock to the wealthier countries claim welfare including for children still living in their home country. In the UK this has put huge pressure on housing and medical care that is not sustainable - and it's one of the main reasons for the out vote.
I doubt very much that President Obama would try and sell a similar arrangement to the US electorate.
Well, the Leave posse had one distinct advantage. They were able to appeal to both liberal minded people (through Boris Johnson for example), as well as fascist leaning proles (Nigel Farage and his band of xenophobic clowns).
This bodes ill for several other countries, such as France, the Netherlands, or the US, each of which is struggling with the rise of right wing radical parties.
Maybe more people should have read Lord of the Flies. One can learn a lot from this book, especially what happens if you are stuck on an island with a group of pig fixated public school boys.
Extremely telling: UK voters don’t understand Brexit, Google searches suggest | Ars Technica UK - that is what you get when you let ordinary people decide about highly complex problems. Hey, they might even be building a wall next, to keep Scottish rapists and criminals out...
Not yet. Baby steps.Quote:
Originally Posted by UKRob
Personally I would NOT like to see a Pan-American union for similar reasons as UKRob has said about the EU. Free Trade/NAFTA has been bad enough from where I sit never mind the global economy.
It is not surprising that after the vote people wonder what is next. You are in uncharted territory as this has never been done before. This will set a precedence for the future so what the final up shot is will be a coin toss. Fasten your seat belt, the roller coaster ride has just started.
Bob
That is an excellent point. Spain should deport the roughly 400,000 Britons living in Spain full time, exploiting Spain's health service. Make Costa del Sol liveable again!Quote:
Originally Posted by UKRob
Health tourists have cost UK tax payers roughly 6 billion in the last 8 years.
Economic constructs like the EU encompass countries of greatly differing standards of living. It may be good for business/trade but it plays havoc with countries that had a high standard of living for the middle class worker. It is a micro version of the "Global Economy" we are now in. That creates a lot of dissatisfaction in a large group of people.
At one time if a country's economy was doing OK it also meant that the middle class was doing alright too. That is no longer the case. I wonder how that happened?
Bob
I would have thought that such an important decision would have had to have had a minimum of a 75% agreement as opposed to the 50.01%.
I'm glad my home city voted to remain. The EU have done far more for Liverpool than successive Tory governments have in the last 40 years.
Having been born in Wales and spending much of my first five years there, I support the Nationalist movement. That said, I have my own thoughts on the vote but will remain silent for those with more at stake to voice their opinion, but, it's interesting to read the responses.
From my end, O'Bama, in spite of his Irish heritage, should keep his nose out of it. He's got enough troubles not leading his own country!
I well remember the first time we entered the European union under Edward Heath's tory Government, at the time the only talk was about a huge European free trade market which we all wanted, what they didn't say that you slowly but surely take total control of your country with their stupid liberal PC human rights we in the UK don't need human rights we are more than civilized to make our own judgments and laws without some brussels-bureaucrats telling us what we can or cannot do.
Let me just add that I support self determination everywhere!!
Yes, Merkel managed to destroy Europe without firing a shot - 3 times in one century for Germany....sheesh.
They might do it via Scandinavia as well :)Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinK
Well alea iacta est and everyone should respect the results because Britons have to live with everything there is to come for decades to come. Both good and bad.
It was most interesting to read the British media before the elections. I was sorry to see that specially those for exit used sometimes arguments that were not so true as they should. Now it seems that some people based their votes on feelings and prejudices, not facts.
58/42 is an interesting result. Had it been the either way, now it leaves a lot of people dissapointed. The nation is polarized and divided in two.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor
This seems quite common these days!
At least you didn't have to fight a revolution to gain freedom. :tu:tuQuote:
Originally Posted by celticcrusader
Not quite accurate Robin - there are reciprocal arrangements regarding the costs of health care. In fact those Britons living in Spain contribute to Spain's economy - they spend their money there and are not reliant on state welfare.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinK
What I don't quite understand is your attitude to a decision that was taken by a majority of the British people for a future of self determination. My point about economic immigrants is just one of the issues but certainly not the only or most important one. I used it originally to point out the comparison to say, Mexicans, have an automatic right to live in the USA if a pan-American union existed.
First, it was a majority of voters, not the people. Second, it was England and Wales, not the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by UKRob
Coming from a country that helped plunge Europe into world wars twice, I take a keen interest in retaining the institution that has been ensuring peace in Europe since 1945. A Tory government has damaged that institution for no reason but to try and solve a local problem with a bunch of racists even more right wing and delusional than they. Add to that Corbyn's failure to turn out the vote in Labour regions, and of course that spineless clown Johnson, and you have three toffs playing destiny with Europe in times of an acute crisis.
Last, and as stated previously, you cannot have a referendum over something as complex as the EU. The proverbial man on the Clapham bus simply does not understand how it works. Which leaves him approachable by racists, xenophobes, and fascists.
So, I hope that explains my attitude. I am appalled by the decision, but not surprised. It fits into a trend towards isolationism, and reactionary longing for a world that never really existed. This is 2016, and neither will make Mr Farage the UK white again, nor Me Trump the US. What they will do, as witnessed by the rise of UKIP, the Front National, and the love child of a Scottish woman and an orange haired orangutan, is make the world a more hostile, narrowminded, and dangerous place. Pathetic.
I find it interesting that the U.S. is polarized, split essentially in half politically as well. I don't think it's a coincidence. Very interesting indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor
I wish Great Britain all the best and my sincere hope is that GB can and will thrive on its own. It certainly is an upset for global governance.
It seems there are two possible outcomes with forming such unions: 1) Economically "stronger" countries stimulate and motivate economically "weaker" countries to become stronger economically. 2) Economically "weaker" countries erode economically "stronger" countries' progress and slow overall economic growth. It seems to me the EU in general has been exhibiting outcome 2?
ChrisL
:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Phrank
Bob
I'm surprised that the average citizen is held in such low esteem. Also a bit insulting, as I am just an average citizen myself!Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinK
In my opinion, today's average citizen is far more informed as far as what is good for himself and his family, than some elected official! It's high time for the majority to be heard and have their desires known and carried out than to be continually led like lambs to the slaughter. The rank and file is tired, and rightfully so, of their politicians, who are supposed to be in office to project the will of their constituents, making backroom deals and doing exactly as they please!
I'm happy seeing the "man on the Clapham bus" standing up and being heard in such a loud voice!
BRAVO
No personal offence meant, but the last time average people were given a loud voice was shortly before the second world war broke out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Druid
Also, the average man will be hit hardest by the EU's response to the referendum. A touch of the short sharp shock, just wait and see.
This from a political scientists specialising in political extremism married to a lawyer with a PhD in European law.
Thank goodness. Another step back for the flawed notions of One Government and Socialism. Producers are tired of dragging non-producers along. Changes, they are a coming!
Imho polarization is rarely or never good. At worst it might lead into tragic consequences like what happened here 99 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisL
I'm sorry to see these days when people carelessly put critic on bit wrong directions, be it EU or USA or whatever. When they in fact should put their critic on globalisation. Which happens no matter what governments, EU or USA do. There is no escape except maybe in North Korea. The wheel is not turning back. Factories do not come back to Manchaster, Denver or Turku Finland from China. No matter what we decide.
EU is actually pretty loose union that leaves individual governments changes to make also bad decisions. That is what we saw in Greece. People there decided to vote for politicians that promised nice things and rose gardens, and at the same time, lead their country into bankrupt. At the same time Union has been the only hope for former eastern European countries where standards of living have raised dramatically since the days of the iron curtain.
On the other hand EU has done remarkable job securing peace in the continent. From where i stand, it has done a lot more good than our politicians could have never done. Giving people more changes and more alternatives to choose from. Too often politicians that keeps bad yell and big mouth on 'right to choose ourselves' actually mean that they want to decide for people. Not giving people right to choose themself.
EU is not ready of course but keeps changing, not only today but also in the future.
And no offence taken ... Different opinions is what makes the world go 'round!Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinK
No offence meant, but I'd personally prefer to make my decisions for my own welfare, and my own way in the world than have the values of experts and pseudo-experts jammed down my throat like so much pig swill ..
Another thought that pertains not only to the US ... excerpted from Thomas Jefferson...
... the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it’s natural manure.
Whilst I agree with most of what you say in terms of it not being a straight into Europe, it is worth pointing out that Scotland's NHS is currently devolved, and in somewhat better nick when compared with the rest of the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceni
The point on oil however is well taken but more to the point the value of that oil dropped significantly.
Geek
Sent from my HTC One mini 2 using Tapatalk
Yes, polarization is rarely if ever good. Meaningful dialog ceases and no consensus can be built on the way ahead. Pure dogma never got anyone anywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor
Unfortunately there is no turning the wheel back on a globalized economy but that does not make it any more palatable to large sections of the population that formerly had a decent standard of living.
The EU no matter how it has improved things in Europe still is seen to interfere with the very different cultures in the various countries that comprise the EU. Cultural identities, customs and traditions, are a very important part of being a distinct country. Whether or not they are in fact being trampled does not matter only that they are perceived, rightly or wrongly, to be trampled.
Add to that the fear of the unknown/foreign to the problem.
Bob
Happy Independence Day
Personally what I think means little, pretty much what I think about foreigners opinions of the US,, very little :)
72% voter turnout :tu color me impressed
Look at it this way, there are "experts" on both sides, over here our "experts" have missed it all for years, time will tell not experts...
Good Luck Good Health and Prosperity
And that is exactly why we see Europe as wrong. You seem to think that because you are a Political Scientist and your wife is a lawyer that you know better than the people who have to queue up to get a doctor's appointment. Why do you consider that your opinion counts for more than anyone else?Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinK
Believe me, when the guillotine falls, it chops off anyone's head.
The sky will not fall with Britain leaving...regardless of the carping and braying of the offended EU oligarchs, they have two years to negotiate exit terms.
Britain was never really that, "European" to begin with IMO...France is a bit of a basket case with Unions that are far too powerful, the Italians don't bother to pay much taxes, same with Greece, all are a huge drag on the EU, let alone if Turkey comes in, so leave it to the Germans to carry it all, it's what they want anyhow, and always planned to do.
Back in the days when Charles De Gaulle denied Britain entry to the European Common Market as it was known then - his decision was based on what he called 'An Island Nation that has more in common with the rest of the world than Europe'.
Well, it turns out that he was probably more prescient than all the politicians since then. Maybe we should not have turned our back on commonwealth countries like Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa in the rush to embrace Europe. And maybe, those same countries will forgive us - and forge a new alliance once again.
Didn't think it was possible, but I spend a lot of time hoping and praying that fool spends more of our tax dollars on golfing and lavish vacations. He does less damage and embarrasses the country less that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Druid
I'll never understand why US politicians spend so much time fussing over what other countries should do. You'd think they would have enough on their plates trying to sort things out at home and be want to stop playing Team America: World Police. Bean bags...
I echo Gssixgun's sentiments. My opinion as a Yank may not mean much but I wish our UK brethren good luck, health, and prosperity with their endeavor. I'm surprised that the UK voted as it did, I was sure when I read about Brexit it would end with Britain remaining a member of the EU. Puts a smile on my face seeing Britain choose to stand on it's own two feet.
I'm still waiting for the Obama/Clinton Klan to somehow try to blame this on Bush :)