UK out of EU

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Originally Posted by UKRob

This is all moving away from the point - the UK voted to leave the UK for a host of reasons. Robin has chosen to concentrate on immigration which was actually about the third most important one. The main reason is one of a sovereign state - when Btitain joined the EU it was on the basis of an economic union between the major western Europen countries.

There was never any intention to provide a security ot military force - and even now - security in Europe is the preserve of NATO which the UK contreributes to in a far greater extent than other European countries.

The single most important reason why the UK chose to abandon the EU is the question of sovereignty - France and Germany have a stated aim of creating a supra-national state that was never agreed to when the UK joined. We have experienced a situation where European Courts have superseded and overruled local legislation and reached what appear to be ridiculous conclusions.

The U.K. Is not a right wing society - we are one of the most tolerant and accepting societies in the modern world - despite what Robin would have you believe. The vote to leave the European Union was not taken lightly, it was a gut feeling that the EU cannot survive in its current form.

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Agreed - those choosing to reduce the issue to immigration alone take comfort in thinking that those who, for a myriad of reasons, felt the UE was failing them, on multiple fronts, are imbeciles, and not listening to their betters - but it's always easier to reduce your opponents to those who can't chew gum and walk at the same time, intellectually inferior, and just not capable of fathoming the facts.

All this, despite this intellectually challenged group handing the Remain side a resounding defeat - amazing they even knew how to mark their ballots correctly.:)

The EU wasn't just failing them from what I read. When the EU takes control over another countries laws and their judgments supersede those of the native country it's time to get out. A small town butcher in England can't package a little kidney with the liver he wraps like he has learned from his father and grandfather, then it's time to boot the EU. That is a little intrusive if you ask me. In the interest of better trade my butt-ox. It's a power grab period. Same old fights that have been going on for centuries. Germany wants it this way, France wants it that way, England would rather not play that game and just do their own thing. The EU freed up borrowing for the smaller countries and look how that turned out.
The phenomenon I see is there was a vote and the ones that lost don't accept that they lost. Yelling screaming, protesting. Yeah, civilized humans living the democratic dream Pfffff. Wing nuts I call them, easily spun off :<0)

Another thing I noticed is the very same people who have the most to lose, IE their 401k, still voted leave. I don't think they believe the liars/confused any longer and are willing to risk a lot to get their country back. Good for them !

It's one thing to want to do something, another to be able to do it, and completely different to actually do it.

The UK didn't join EU through a referendum (there was one whether to stay in EC which was 60% for), and they can't leave it through one. The only way to leave is if their elected officials take the appropriate steps, and suddenly they are not in a hurry to do so. In fact they are now apparently looking for ways around the process because of realization that following it leaves UK in a comparatively weak negotiating position.

All this unpreparedness does not instill confidence and that is not a good thing.

As far as protests, that's just normal part of democracy and certainly beats resorting to violence which I keep reading warnings and treats that it's coming. I am pretty sure that there is no universal age of wisdom, as plenty of grown and old people have not gotten much of it, but anybody who pays a little bit of attention ought to know that those at the top are generally doing alright no matter what happens, so 'just burning it all' is pretty much cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

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Originally Posted by RobinK

Well, the Leave posse had one distinct advantage. They were able to appeal to both liberal minded people (through Boris Johnson for example), as well as fascist leaning proles (Nigel Farage and his band of xenophobic clowns).

This bodes ill for several other countries, such as France, the Netherlands, or the US, each of which is struggling with the rise of right wing radical parties.

Maybe more people should have read Lord of the Flies. One can learn a lot from this book, especially what happens if you are stuck on an island with a group of pig fixated public school boys.

Extremely telling: UK voters don’t understand Brexit, Google searches suggest | Ars Technica UK - that is what you get when you let ordinary people decide about highly complex problems. Hey, they might even be building a wall next, to keep Scottish rapists and criminals out...

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Yea, letting ordinary people govern themselves is very risky. Better to let smart people dictate how things should be done, worked so well in the USSR;)

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Originally Posted by miller1952

Yea, letting ordinary people govern themselves is very risky. Better to let smart people dictate how things should be done, worked so well in the USSR;)

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An interesting reply. Two questions:

1. Can you explain, in legal terms, how the British "people" can reconcile the Leave.EU campaign's main goals (stop immigration, and maintain access to the single EU market), please?

2. Imagine you are Castle Forbes. Can you name all relevant rules and regulations required to be able to sell your products in each EU country after a successful Brexit?

Bonus question: Can you also explain how the USSR was a democracy?

Thank you.

[Edit] To elaborate on the above questions: The British referendum offered only "yes" and "no" as possible answers to an extremely complex question. Since Switzerland is often cited as a role model for semi-direct democratic decisions, it should be noted that the British referendum would not have been possible under Swiss law.

Most notably, the Leave.EU campaign failed to provide detail about the exact way of leaving the EU while fulfilling its promises, as well as the cost involved. In Switzerland, that would have been mandatory. One salient example is "getting your products into the common market". Ask any non-EU "artisan" soap"maker", and you will quickly realise why these products do not exist in the EU.

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Originally Posted by 10Pups

The EU wasn't just failing them from what I read. When the EU takes control over another countries laws and their judgments supersede those of the native country it's time to get out. A small town butcher in England can't package a little kidney with the liver he wraps like he has learned from his father and grandfather, then it's time to boot the EU.

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Your comment is a perfect example of talks that have been going on at this side of the pond. There is no such a rule from union. But nothing ain't easier than to say there is. Never mind how things are; true or not. All that matters how you make people feel.
Of course i do not know how the case you mentioned are in UK, i do not really care. If there is it comes from the local authorities. Blame the union.

The question is that is the butcher in question free to decide how to pack his products in the future. In a case of some local rule i guess the situation remains the same. But who to blame from now on? The vote has been given, never mind the butcher.

These days, maybe more than ever, people should deserve to make their decisions on pure facts. Be it for or against.

Your example is just one, but there are thousands and thousands just the same. Never mind how things are; all that matters is how you make people feel. Makes me very sad. Once people realize they have been told things that aren't true at all, they tend to trust politicians little less in the future and more into mob rule.

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Originally Posted by Sailor

There is no such a rule from union.

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To put things into perspective, and to demonstrate how incredibly complex the EU is, take a look at EU obligations: UK implementing legislation since 1993 in the House of Commons Library. The punch line: "there is no totally accurate, rational or useful way of calculating the percentage of national laws based on or influenced by the EU." Yes, it is that complex.

Furthermore, there is this:

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In agriculture, fisheries, external trade, and the environment, it’s fair to say that EU legislation and policy is indeed the main driver of UK law and policy, although the UK retains some freedom of action in these areas.

In other important areas—for example, welfare and social security, education, criminal law, family law and the NHS—the direct influence of the EU is far more limited. [Source, and also this]

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Further up in this thread, someone claimed that the EU was founded only as an economic union. This claim is blatantly false. Its first instalment, the European Coal and Steel Community "[...]was first proposed by French foreign minister Robert Schuman on 9 May 1950 as a way to prevent further war between France and Germany." And while the common market has indeed helped significantly foster growth in relatively underdeveloped countries, or regions, such as Portugal, Spain, or Wales, the greatest success is that there have been no wars inside the EU for decades (if you do not count football matches, that is).

As an aside, and because EU critics love to bring up that point at every occasion, it is not Germany that is driving further political integration, but rather countries like Italy, and France.

The UK as voted except our vote we want out of Europe, the previous UK government was a coalition which almost most of the UK didn't want we could'nt call for another general elction end of, I really couldn't care what London wants it's so far removed from the rest of the UK it could be a country in it's own right.

The Welsh vote has struck me as particularly strange.

Anyone remember 1984? Wales is one of the regions in the UK hit hardest by right wing (read: first Thatcher, and, theoretically now, Johnson, Gove, Farage) politics:

http://i3.walesonline.co.uk/incoming...5b/maggie7.jpg

Likewise, Wales is probably the region in the UK to have benefited most from EU structural funds: Welsh Government | EU Funds in Wales ...

Less diplomatically put, the Leave.EU vote has all but guaranteed Wales to get more right wing London rule, and less money. Which is why I am still at a loss to understand that particular vote.

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Originally Posted by RobinK

The Welsh vote has struck me as particularly strange.

Anyone remember 1984? Wales is one of the regions in the UK hit hardest by right wing (read: first Thatcher, and, theoretically now, Johnson, Gove, Farage) politics:

http://i3.walesonline.co.uk/incoming...5b/maggie7.jpg

Likewise, Wales is probably the region in the UK to have benefited most from EU structural funds: Welsh Government | EU Funds in Wales ...

Less diplomatically put, the Leave.EU vote has all but guaranteed Wales to get more right wing London rule, and less money. Which is why I am still at a loss to understand that particular vote.

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Robin you are very right to think it strange that Wales voted out after all Wales is the traditional Labour socialist heartland with the UK and you could say with the most to lose should we come out of Europe, this why it's a fare vote Welsh people generally are on the left of UK politics with no right wing parties able to influence or scare them into the Brexit vote and they voted out, I myself voted out as I see no long term future within europe I've never been a supporter of bigger is better in fact I'm a big fan of the late James Goldsmith and his ideas.

Zac Goldsmith: How my dad saved Britain

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Originally Posted by celticcrusader

with no right wing parties able to influence or scare them into the Brexit vote and they voted out, I myself voted out as I see no long term future within europe I've never been a supporter of bigger is better

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By voting out, they sold their fate, and future, to right wing parties, though. I think we can agree on that?

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Originally Posted by celticcrusader

in fact I'm a big fan of the late James Goldsmith and his ideas.

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Ah yes, that. But the Euro is not the EU, mind you. The UK did not have it, will not have it, and that is that. The referendum was not about joining the Euro zone, but about leaving the common market. And, in the case of Wales, access to EU structural funds, although apparently nobody told the Welsh in proper terms. :)

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Originally Posted by RobinK

By voting out, they sold their fate, and future, to right wing parties, though. I think we can agree on that?

Ah yes, that. But the Euro is not the EU, mind you. The UK did not have it, will not have it, and that is that. The referendum was not about joining the Euro zone, but about leaving the common market. And, in the case of Wales, access to EU structural funds, although apparently nobody told the Welsh in proper terms. :)

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So Robin - let's dive into some root cause analysis, specifically Merkel and her puppet government in the EU? You have yet to address many of the world commentators, both on the left and right, that place the blame for Brexit, the rise of Nationalism, the coming potential referendums in France, the Netherlands etc., squarely at Merkel and the Germany's feet.

It wasn't me that came up with the phrase, "Germany has once again destroyed Europe, this time without firing a single shot...."

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Originally Posted by Phrank

puppet government

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I'm terribly sorry, but you lost me there.

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Originally Posted by RobinK

I'm terribly sorry, but you lost me there.

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Don't be obtuse Robin, if you managed to throw out a Lord of the Flies reference, I'm sure you're just as quick to understand that the EU is dominated and has been controlled by Merkel, i.e., Germany.

They have been imposing their political and financial policy on the rest of the EU, and essentially, not only is Brexit a rejection of the EU, it's a rejection of once again, Germany dominating Europe. Merkel's reckless policies, imposing poverty on Greece, hard-lining the UK and Europe by imposing an Orwellian array of regulations, imposing immigration and free movement, is one of the defining reasons Nationalism is on the rise, and the EU has failed.

Again, I'll make it easy for you - what responsibility for this disastrous Brexit result and the continuing dissolution of the EU do you attribute to Merkel?

Easy...:shrug:

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Originally Posted by Phrank

Don't be obtuse Robin, if you managed to throw out a Lord of the Flies reference, I'm sure you're just as quick to understand that the EU is dominated and has been controlled by Merkel, i.e., Germany.

They have been imposing their political and financial policy on the rest of the EU, and essentially, not only is Brexit a rejection of the EU, it's a rejection of once again, Germany dominating Europe. Merkel's reckless policies, imposing poverty on Greece, hard-lining the UK and Europe by imposing an Orwellian array of regulations, imposing immigration and free movement, is one of the defining reasons Nationalism is on the rise, and the EU has failed.

Again, I'll make it easy for you - what responsibility for this disastrous Brexit result and the continuing dissolution of the EU do you attribute to Merkel?

Easy...:shrug:

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It is easy to mix Germany and EU by accident these days. Germany ruling the Europe couldn't be further from how things really are. The union is relatively loose comparing to other federations of the world: Russia, Canada, USA, even Germany and Switzerland. Because of the autonomy in Åland isles (and probably we see and autonomic Sami country in the future) even my country is a federation.
And almost every time you ask someone what is the EU regulation he/she hates the most, the answer is something that has nothing to do with the union at all. Recently here people were mouthing against union because of the annual car inspections. Note: The union regulations demands inspections every 4th year, national law says once every year. And so on. And so on.

Another that is easy to be against these days are the basics of free movements: services, goods, people, money. Just like it is between US states. At the same time those who are against use those very same basics every day. By demanding prohibitions they actually want to decrease their own rights. I've lived in times when those rights were not obvious. Haven't missed them every since.

It doesn't mean that the union is ready. There's a lot to do now and in the future. But as long as it accused for bit wrong reasons it surely makes it no easier.
The union has made a huge mistake when it has failed to tell people what it is and specially what it isn't.

I guess, at least for me, this is not a question on what we just saw in UK. It is their right and i guess it's whole Europe and world respects the results of the referendum. There might be positive and/or negative consequenses but i'm sure Britons have their ways to share the gains and losses by themselves.

It is about the certain trend in politics these days here and there. We seem to be slowly moving into an era where politicians no more need to give people pure facts but images. And i'm certainly sure it is a huge risk to democracy, liberties and freedom to choose. People deserve to know what they actually are voting for.

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Originally Posted by Phrank

[...]the EU is dominated and has been controlled by Merkel, i.e., Germany.

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Greetings from my wife, Phrank.

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Originally Posted by The Wife

"Make him read this: EUR-Lex - 12012E/TXT - EN - EUR-Lex

Make him count the word "unanimously".

Which part of "unanimously" does he have difficulty in understanding?"

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Originally Posted by RobinK

Greetings from my wife, Phrank.

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I'm terribly sorry, but you lost me there.

:p

And which part of having you explain Merkel's role in this have you failed to comprehend, or is your precious leader beyond reproach, ask "your wife" that question, as she seems to answer for you.

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Originally Posted by Phrank

And which part of having you explain Merkel's role in this have you failed to comprehend[...]

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Exactly none. Read EUR-Lex - 12012E/TXT - EN - EUR-Lex, count the word "unanimously". Yes, that part of the EU is that simple.

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Originally Posted by RobinK

Exactly none. Read EUR-Lex - 12012E/TXT - EN - EUR-Lex, count the word "unanimously". Yes, that part of the EU is that simple.

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After all your rhetoric on this thread, the best you have to offer is a cut and paste link?:nono:

Oh well, you and your wife seem not to want to discuss Merkel's role in this, ignorance is bliss as they say...the UK will be fine, just a tempest in a teapot, and the EU will continue to erode, till Germany has Greece and other bankrupt bunkmates as members they can boss around, good luck with that.

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Originally Posted by Phrank

After all your rhetoric on this thread, the best you have to offer is a cut and paste link?:nono:

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Actually, that "cut and paste link" is the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. You should probably read it before trying to engage in a conversation. Because if you have not understood what the 116 instances of "unanimous" mean, you are bound to make yourself ill informed.

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Originally Posted by RobinK

Actually, that "cut and paste link" is the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. You should probably read it before trying to engage in a conversation. Because if you have not understood what the 116 instances of "unanimous" mean, you are bound to make yourself ill informed.

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Treaties? Oh, like the Treaty of Versailles? Yes, much is written on paper, what transpires tends to be radically different.

Much like the EU turned out to be, as is proven by Brexit, and the growing agreement that individual countries don't want to be told what to do by a bunch of technocrats in Brussels...the Leave vote simply legitimized that the current state of the EU is not palatable to many member states, and that concern is growing, and the fear in Brussels rising exponentially, as manifested in its increased bullying behavior and hamfisted approach by Merkel.

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Originally Posted by Phrank

Treaties? Oh, like the Treaty of Versailles?

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Very much so. Only that your country's Tory government signed it on its own accord.

May I humbly suggest that you actually read that document before you embarrass yourself any further?

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Originally Posted by RobinK

Very much so. Only that your country's Tory government signed it on its own accord.

May I humbly suggest that you actually read that document before you embarrass yourself any further?

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How about you explain Merkel's role in this...until you belly up to the bar and explain Germany and Merkels failed policies in this debacle, you're just ignoring a legitimate analysis of the discussion. Most of the world's press, both on the left and the right, has squarely placed much of the blame for this on Merkel.

You have yet to acknowledge this or offer any constructive analysis of Germany's and Merkel's policies in regards Brexit, and the eroding of other member nations in the EU; hence, your carping and braying about reading treaties is a lame attempt at deflection.

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Originally Posted by Phrank

How about you explain Merkel's role in this.

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But I have, Phrank. It is in the treaty your country signed. As stated several times before, feel free to read it, and look for the word "unanimous".

I am really sorry, Phrank. I would like to help you understand the basics of the EU. I have showed you the treaty. Unfortunately, I cannot make you understand it. Believe me, I would like to. If only to help you save yourself further embarrassment.

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Originally Posted by Phrank

How about you explain Merkel's role in this...until you belly up to the bar and explain Germany and Merkels failed policies in this debacle, you're just ignoring a legitimate analysis of the discussion. Most of the world's press, both on the left and the right, has squarely placed much of the blame for this on Merkel.

You have yet to acknowledge this or offer any constructive analysis of Germany's and Merkel's policies in regards Brexit, and the eroding of other member nations in the EU; hence, your carping and braying about reading treaties is a lame attempt at deflection.

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Guess you do not like Germany and Merkel much. But i'd like to know what you think she has personally done wrong?

If you want to criticize the Union that is ok but you should really get to know how decisions are made here, in a parlament elected by a vote or comission, elected by democratically elected government. Unanimoysly, which has been both blessing and curse. Merkel cannot decide anything the member states do not want.

Then, if you want to be the part of the Union trade you have to accept the negotiated rules. No-one is forced by accept, it is their own wish.
Norway, for example, pays the whole lot of money and follows the directives to get into market union. They do not have to, it is their own wish. They cannot pick cherries from the cake, but they cannot decide the union rules either. It is rather take it all, leave it all. Up to you to decide.

If UK, another example doesn't want to fulfill the norms regarding to safety, ie directives no more, that is up to her wish. But they can't sell cars to union any more. What would you think the owners, mostly Germans, Chinese and Japanese decide to do about it? It is the globalization that hits next. That is not EU to decide.

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Originally Posted by RobinK

But I have, Phrank. It is in the treaty your country signed. As stated several times before, feel free to read it, and look for the word "unanimous".

I am really sorry, Phrank. I would like to help you understand the basics of the EU. I have showed you the treaty. Unfortunately, I cannot make you understand it. Believe me, I would like to. If only to help you save yourself further embarrassment.

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Robin, your typical bully-boy behaviour and deflection on legitimate questions do nothing but remind me of your continued, "head in the sand" mentality when met with opposing viewpoints.

On another recent thread, you were back to telling everyone all the 14 razors were Herkenrath blanks, even though the CEO or Revisor pointed out that you were incorrect and gave you multiple examples.

You refuse to address Merkel's policies, so spare us the tantrum and take your toys and go home...like you always do.

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Originally Posted by Phrank

Robin, your typical bully-boy behaviour and deflection on legitimate questions do nothing but remind me of your continued, "head in the sand" mentality when met with opposing viewpoints.

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Phrank, would you mind terribly reading that treaty, please? Because your "question" is not a question. Thank you kindly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djwkhXkvPkI

Nothing like a little humour to break the tension, eh. ;)

Bob

O.K. I've read 9 pages so far, but can anyone tell me who thought up of the E.U.? IMO Britain should have never joined it in the first place. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you should NEVER hand over your economy to a bunch of folks who have never been elected for the position they hold. Too me it stinks to much of communism. BTW, Who or what entity decided that a E.U. would be a good thing, I'll make a small bet that the folks who thought that a E.U. would be a good thing have become stinking rich on the backs of its weaker members.

Honestly here, and I'm not dissing anyone but from the viewpoint of an American unless he has studied European History and Economics thoroughly the idea of the EU is anathema and totally against just about anything most here believe in especially Right Wing leaning folks. I don't think folks here in the US get the EU or have ever gotten it. They may think they do but they don't.

The more I read the less I think anybody understands it Spendur :<0)

Well, most americans don't understand how their own country works, many can't even express themselves coherently in English, but this has nothing to do with nationality - everywhere people are the same and you can find the full spectrum covered anywhere you go.

I'm pretty sure Robin knows the meaning of hegemony - I think he's maybe forgotten it.

Also, Robin seems to be under the impression that Phrank is British - am I correct in thinking that Canada is his home place?

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Originally Posted by UKRob

I'm pretty sure Robin knows the meaning of hegemony - I think he's maybe forgotten it.

Also, Robin seems to be under the impression that Phrank is British - am I correct in thinking that Canada is his home place?

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Yes and Yes.

Bob

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Originally Posted by UKRob

I'm pretty sure Robin knows the meaning of hegemony - I think he's maybe forgotten it.

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Absolutely not. The fall of the British empire ("hegemony"), and the vacuum of power which it left after WWI played a crucial part the rise of boh Communism and National Socialism. How could a German ever forget?

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Originally Posted by UKRob

Also, Robin seems to be under the impression that Phrank is British - am I correct in thinking that Canada is his home place?

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It does not really matter. I resent the anti-German propaganda either way, especially because it is so blatantly false. As stated several times previously, the UK's problem right now is not Germany, but France, or Belgium. Here is a nice article that neatly sums up the issue.

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Originally Posted by THORandODIN

O.K. I've read 9 pages so far, but can anyone tell me who thought up of the E.U.?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by THORandODIN

IMO Britain should have never joined it in the first place. Maybe I'm wrong,

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You are.

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Originally Posted by THORandODIN

but it seems to me that you should NEVER hand over your economy to a bunch of folks who have never been elected for the position they hold.

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These "folks" being who exactly?

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Originally Posted by THORandODIN

Too me it stinks to much of communism.

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Which is why the UK joined under Margaret Thatcher, I presume? Yes, that makes perfect sense.

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Originally Posted by THORandODIN

O.K. I've read 9 pages so far, but can anyone tell me who thought up of the E.U.? IMO Britain should have never joined it in the first place. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you should NEVER hand over your economy to a bunch of folks who have never been elected for the position they hold. Too me it stinks to much of communism. BTW, Who or what entity decided that a E.U. would be a good thing, I'll make a small bet that the folks who thought that a E.U. would be a good thing have become stinking rich on the backs of its weaker members.

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Who decided that the USA would be a good thing? :)
As to your post: no. The weaker members are the ones desperately wanting to join because they want a level playing field and access to the single market. And funnily enough, the UK was one of the ones who pushed hardest to get Eastern European countries to join.

European history proves conclusively that a Europe consisting of independent sovereign nation states is doomed to be at war with itself. I am very much in favor of my country being part of the EU because being bound together like this has stopped us from warring among ourselves for an unprecedentedly long time. 70 years of peace on the continent is worth it, and the EU costs less than internal wars would have cost.

And that's all I have to say about that.

I guess the colonials in the US thought it was a good thing.

No Taxation without Representation

It just boils down to people feeling they do not have enough say in what happens in their own neck of the woods and want out from under what they considered was oppressing them. In the US case you had Colonies leaving the British Empire to form a country. In the case of the EU you have a country leaving the EU to regain it's independence from another external entity.

It does not matter if the grievances are real or not, depending on your pov, but just that they are perceived to be. Not making any judgements in either case.

Bob

Actually, I have one more thing to say: has anybody here bothered to read article 50 yet?

Bascially, it forces the leaving country to negotiate terms in 2 years time. Not the terms for leaving, but the terms for dealing with the EU afterwards. The UK exports almost half of its stuff to the EU so they desperately need trade agreements. And they have precious little to bargain with. After 2 years, their membership can expire without deal, which would cripple the it. The UK does not get to be part of the EU concensus or decision making. In practical terms, it's a take it or leave it affair.

Now, they NEED the trade with the EU. But they cannot and will not get access to the single market without free movement. So at BEST they will get a Norway type deal, where they still need to comply with all EU regulations and allow freedom of movement, but they will no longer have a rebate, EU subsidizing, or a veto in the decision making process.

Meanwhile the brexit figure heads have all withdrawn or refused to take a leadership role. Because they never actually wanted to win. They wanted the leverage of the protest vote. The never accounted for the possibility of actually winning this vote. So now they are screwed. Bad. The gbp has dropped 22% and counting. And that is with people still hedging their bets on whether the brexit will be avoided or not. Economy is already slowing down, people are running for their money, heads of industry are calling their MEPs to tell them they need immigrants coming in.

The fact that even Nigel Farage suddenly quits as ukip party leader, just when his dream is about to come true, should tell you everything there is to know about the viability of an actual brexit. The fact that Boris Johnson looked like he was stabbed, on the day of his victory, and the fact that he now refuses to become PM, should tell you everything you need to know about how rosy the outlook is, should a brexit happen.

Oh and the EU, with almost unilateral power during the negotiations, is looked at with scrutiny as to how it will deal with this precedental case. Populists who want to organize their own referendum in their own country are looking at how the UK will fare. So don't be expecting a golden parachute being handed out the UK. If they go through with this, I suspect they will be made an example of. They will not be crushed economically, because that would be bad for everyone, but I bet anything that they will be off far worse than they were now.

I don't know much about how much of this is reported in the US, and in what manner. But I have a good number of friends in the UK, and I follow the news closely from different sources. Basically: the UK screwed itself so bad it will hurt for decades. I know it, they know it, Cameron knows it, and even Johnson and farage know it. All that remains to be seen now is whether the brexit will actually happen. That is still not a given. If it doesn't, then the UK has lost all moral authority and any basis for negotiating future deals. If it doesn, then the GBP will drop a lot further, and things will turn much worse for the UK.

And they'll still have to follow all the regulations if they want to export their 50% of their gdp to the EU, but will have none of the perks, none of the veto power, and be left with an economy that will be hurting for a long time.

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Originally Posted by BobH

It does not matter if the grievances are real or not, depending on your pov, but just that they are perceived to be. Not making any judgements in either case.

Bob

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Absolutely. Perceptions and emotions are what caused the vote to swing this way. Not facts.