UK out of EU

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Originally Posted by ChrisL

I find it interesting that the U.S. is polarized, split essentially in half politically as well. I don't think it's a coincidence. Very interesting indeed.

I wish Great Britain all the best and my sincere hope is that GB can and will thrive on its own. It certainly is an upset for global governance.

It seems there are two possible outcomes with forming such unions: 1) Economically "stronger" countries stimulate and motivate economically "weaker" countries to become stronger economically. 2) Economically "weaker" countries erode economically "stronger" countries' progress and slow overall economic growth. It seems to me the EU in general has been exhibiting outcome 2?

ChrisL

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Imho polarization is rarely or never good. At worst it might lead into tragic consequences like what happened here 99 years ago.

I'm sorry to see these days when people carelessly put critic on bit wrong directions, be it EU or USA or whatever. When they in fact should put their critic on globalisation. Which happens no matter what governments, EU or USA do. There is no escape except maybe in North Korea. The wheel is not turning back. Factories do not come back to Manchaster, Denver or Turku Finland from China. No matter what we decide.

EU is actually pretty loose union that leaves individual governments changes to make also bad decisions. That is what we saw in Greece. People there decided to vote for politicians that promised nice things and rose gardens, and at the same time, lead their country into bankrupt. At the same time Union has been the only hope for former eastern European countries where standards of living have raised dramatically since the days of the iron curtain.

On the other hand EU has done remarkable job securing peace in the continent. From where i stand, it has done a lot more good than our politicians could have never done. Giving people more changes and more alternatives to choose from. Too often politicians that keeps bad yell and big mouth on 'right to choose ourselves' actually mean that they want to decide for people. Not giving people right to choose themself.

EU is not ready of course but keeps changing, not only today but also in the future.

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Originally Posted by RobinK

No personal offence meant, but the last time average people were given a loud voice was shortly before the second world war broke out.

Also, the average man will be hit hardest by the EU's response to the referendum. A touch of the short sharp shock, just wait and see.

This from a political scientists specialising in political extremism married to a lawyer with a PhD in European law.

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And no offence taken ... Different opinions is what makes the world go 'round!

No offence meant, but I'd personally prefer to make my decisions for my own welfare, and my own way in the world than have the values of experts and pseudo-experts jammed down my throat like so much pig swill ..

Another thought that pertains not only to the US ... excerpted from Thomas Jefferson...

... the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it’s natural manure.

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Originally Posted by Iceni

I don't think it's that easy for Scotland and NI. They have no central banks and use Westminster for a lot of the trade they do. The EU may well want them to operate independently and meet certain criteria before they get accepted. Also any independence would be lost. As they would have to join on new members terms. So no nice bonuses like the UK got, Enforced Euro currency, And whatever border controls the UK requires. Also no NHS.

Then comes the really odd part. Scotland has based it's independence on oil. The oil however is mostly in the north sea in Shetland waters. And Shetland may well not want to be part of Scotland. This island will need it's own independence vote, and may well elect to become part of England, Norway or Denmark. Denmark have a very good track record with the Faroe islands, and Norway already has a thriving oil business.

It's like someone kicked a wasp nest over here atm on social media!

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Whilst I agree with most of what you say in terms of it not being a straight into Europe, it is worth pointing out that Scotland's NHS is currently devolved, and in somewhat better nick when compared with the rest of the UK.

The point on oil however is well taken but more to the point the value of that oil dropped significantly.

Geek

Sent from my HTC One mini 2 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Sailor

Imho polarization is rarely or never good. At worst it might lead into tragic consequences like what happened here 99 years ago.

I'm sorry to see these days when people carelessly put critic on bit wrong directions, be it EU or USA or whatever. When they in fact should put their critic on globalisation. Which happens no matter what governments, EU or USA do. There is no escape except maybe in North Korea. The wheel is not turning back. Factories do not come back to Manchaster, Denver or Turku Finland from China. No matter what we decide.

EU is actually pretty loose union that leaves individual governments changes to make also bad decisions. That is what we saw in Greece. People there decided to vote for politicians that promised nice things and rose gardens, and at the same time, lead their country into bankrupt. At the same time Union has been the only hope for former eastern European countries where standards of living have raised dramatically since the days of the iron curtain.

On the other hand EU has done remarkable job securing peace in the continent. From where i stand, it has done a lot more good than our politicians could have never done. Giving people more changes and more alternatives to choose from. Too often politicians that keeps bad yell and big mouth on 'right to choose ourselves' actually mean that they want to decide for people. Not giving people right to choose themself.

EU is not ready of course but keeps changing, not only today but also in the future.

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Yes, polarization is rarely if ever good. Meaningful dialog ceases and no consensus can be built on the way ahead. Pure dogma never got anyone anywhere.

Unfortunately there is no turning the wheel back on a globalized economy but that does not make it any more palatable to large sections of the population that formerly had a decent standard of living.

The EU no matter how it has improved things in Europe still is seen to interfere with the very different cultures in the various countries that comprise the EU. Cultural identities, customs and traditions, are a very important part of being a distinct country. Whether or not they are in fact being trampled does not matter only that they are perceived, rightly or wrongly, to be trampled.

Add to that the fear of the unknown/foreign to the problem.

Bob

Happy Independence Day

Personally what I think means little, pretty much what I think about foreigners opinions of the US,, very little :)

72% voter turnout :tu color me impressed


Look at it this way, there are "experts" on both sides, over here our "experts" have missed it all for years, time will tell not experts...

Good Luck Good Health and Prosperity

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Originally Posted by RobinK

No personal offence meant, but the last time average people were given a loud voice was shortly before the second world war broke out.

Also, the average man will be hit hardest by the EU's response to the referendum. A touch of the short sharp shock, just wait and see.

This from a political scientists specialising in political extremism married to a lawyer with a PhD in European law.

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And that is exactly why we see Europe as wrong. You seem to think that because you are a Political Scientist and your wife is a lawyer that you know better than the people who have to queue up to get a doctor's appointment. Why do you consider that your opinion counts for more than anyone else?

Believe me, when the guillotine falls, it chops off anyone's head.

The sky will not fall with Britain leaving...regardless of the carping and braying of the offended EU oligarchs, they have two years to negotiate exit terms.

Britain was never really that, "European" to begin with IMO...France is a bit of a basket case with Unions that are far too powerful, the Italians don't bother to pay much taxes, same with Greece, all are a huge drag on the EU, let alone if Turkey comes in, so leave it to the Germans to carry it all, it's what they want anyhow, and always planned to do.

Back in the days when Charles De Gaulle denied Britain entry to the European Common Market as it was known then - his decision was based on what he called 'An Island Nation that has more in common with the rest of the world than Europe'.

Well, it turns out that he was probably more prescient than all the politicians since then. Maybe we should not have turned our back on commonwealth countries like Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa in the rush to embrace Europe. And maybe, those same countries will forgive us - and forge a new alliance once again.

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Originally Posted by Druid

Having been born in Wales and spending much of my first five years there, I support the Nationalist movement. That said, I have my own thoughts on the vote but will remain silent for those with more at stake to voice their opinion, but, it's interesting to read the responses.

From my end, O'Bama, in spite of his Irish heritage, should keep his nose out of it. He's got enough troubles not leading his own country!

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Didn't think it was possible, but I spend a lot of time hoping and praying that fool spends more of our tax dollars on golfing and lavish vacations. He does less damage and embarrasses the country less that way.

I'll never understand why US politicians spend so much time fussing over what other countries should do. You'd think they would have enough on their plates trying to sort things out at home and be want to stop playing Team America: World Police. Bean bags...

I echo Gssixgun's sentiments. My opinion as a Yank may not mean much but I wish our UK brethren good luck, health, and prosperity with their endeavor. I'm surprised that the UK voted as it did, I was sure when I read about Brexit it would end with Britain remaining a member of the EU. Puts a smile on my face seeing Britain choose to stand on it's own two feet.

I'm still waiting for the Obama/Clinton Klan to somehow try to blame this on Bush :)