Why does it seem like everyone is trashing Rachel Dolezal??

For those who don't know and/or for our international bretheren, Rachel Dolezal was the head of a National Association for the Advancement of Colored People NAACP Chapter on the east cost of the U.S. She became nationally recognized because she was a caucasian woman who most would say deceived people by posing as an African American woman. She was fired from her job and apparently can't get a job anywhere else, has had to collect food stamps, etc. The only work she's been offered is porn or reality TV both offers of which she's rejected. She maintains that she is "trans-racial". She's biologically a caucasian woman but identifies as a black woman. I think it's fair to say that her name is mud in the U.S. most likely due her deceptive actions in relation to her employment. However, aside from that, it appears that her subjective view of being trans-racial has also been seemingly rejected en masse even among "progressives" and "liberals".

I'm very confused by this. Honestly I am.

We now live in a society in the U.S. where trans-gender is largely accepted and upheld. A human biologically of one sex subjectively identifying as another sex with society as a whole recognizing that person's gender identity as they see it rather than biological identity.

Why then is it unacceptable for a person to identify with and be acknowledged as a different race?

I don't get it.

Can someone play the devil's advocate here and tell me who the two scenarios above differ?

Biological male athletes identifying as transgender females are benefitting identifying as and competing against biologically female athletes.

What would the reason be for disallowing a caucasian who identifies as black from applying for minority scholarships or benefit from affirmative action in the workplace?

My thought is: within the construct of society's current acceptance of transgenger (merely thinking you're a sex opposite your biological sex) up to and including having rights that may be given to the sex the transgender person identifies with, I would support the idea of a person biologically of one race identifying with/thinking they are another race up to and including having rights and benefits that may be given to the race the person identifies with. What's good for the goose has got to be good for the gander.

Thoughts?

Chris - I'll give it a shot and venture to say it is associated with these things. They're called prejudice, greed, and jealousy. It's unfortunate these things dictate our thoughts and how we feel about each other. But there it is! White America perceives her as a threat and Black America perceives her as a traitor.

This is my opinion and mine only. That's how I see it. Imagine if the entire human race was blind. We would find a way to be prejudice against other people because maybe the size of their hands or the way they smell. It's just human nature.

Stay above it and don't lose sight of your values. It's worth the effort!

It's very simple. The trans gender folks or related ones aren't just saying they are this and that, they are different and I think the medical establishment would say psychologically they are different for a variety of reasons.

In the case you mention she is a liar and deceiver plain and simple. In a way a confidence person using her assumed race for personal gain.

"In the land of the blind, The one eyed man is not king. The blind work at the comfortable times and enjoy the rest of the day or night. The sighted has no apparent advantage ...
~Richard

When she said, "I don't understand the question?" that may have influenced how some people viewed her.

She was lying to an employer and saying she was black. Even went so far as to represent a black man as her father. There is a difference between "identifying" as something and falsely claiming something for employment reasons. The NAACP would not have put her in that position had they known she was white. Maybe we need to ask why she felt she had to lie to them?

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

It's very simple. The trans gender folks or related ones aren't just saying they are this and that, they are different and I think the medical establishment would say psychologically they are different for a variety of reasons.

In the case you mention she is a liar and deceiver plain and simple. In a way a confidence person using her assumed race for personal gain.

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So just like Elizabeth Warren :p

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

When she said, "I don't understand the question?" that may have influenced how some people viewed her.

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Well I could say; "I don't understand the thread"!
Like most people claiming to be 'different' and attempt to get special treatment because of that perceived 'difference'.
Sometimes, you get what you ask for.
I feel we are all pretty much the same. Except what is in our minds.
JMHO

She is perceived as a liar and made fools out of those that trusted her. She actually did put on a ruse so it is what it is. People perceived as confused (whether they are or not) will be forgiven. She was clearly not confused about what she was doing by her own admission. It's now a matter of who is going to trust her and with what. Employers have a zero tolerance for this and for good reason.
Me ; I have a low tolerance for stupid. Ignorance I can live with. That may explain my answer :<0)

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

It's very simple. The trans gender folks or related ones aren't just saying they are this and that, they are different and I think the medical establishment would say psychologically they are different for a variety of reasons.

In the case you mention she is a liar and deceiver plain and simple. In a way a confidence person using her assumed race for personal gain.

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Saying transgender are different depends on the parameters used to determine the differences. A post-op transsexual although forever biologically the gender they were born clearly alters his/her appearance in a radical way to the gender they perceive/think themselves to be and western society has accepted the individual's perception of themselves as their new gender.

My understanding about the shifting perception of gender in western society is that currently pre-op transsexuals or even those that have made no radical changes of any kind are also accepted as the gender they think they are. "I think [ I'm a different gender than I am biologically] therefore I am"....

The intent of my post here is not to focus on Dolezal's deceit but rather to pose the question why is: "I think [I'm a different gender than I am biologically] therefore I am" acceptable and embraced by society but: "I think [I'm a different race than I am biologically] therefore I am" is not accepted and even brushed aside as poppycock?

I'm not making light of this; I'm not, for example saying that because transgender by thought is accepted that thinking you're an animal, a chair, etc should also be accepted. I think if transgender than why not transracial is a very legitimate question.....

And I might reply...Whatever! Lets just not wave things in other's faces in this age of information.
Discretion is the better part of valor.
JMO

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

So just like Elizabeth Warren :p

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I guess her birth certificate is phony like Obama eh?

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Originally Posted by ChrisL

Saying transgender are different depends on the parameters used to determine the differences. A post-op transsexual although forever biologically the gender they were born clearly alters his/her appearance in a radical way to the gender they perceive/think themselves to be and western society has accepted the individual's perception of themselves as their new gender.

My understanding about the shifting perception of gender in western society is that currently pre-op transsexuals or even those that have made no radical changes of any kind are also accepted as the gender they think they are. "I think [ I'm a different gender than I am biologically] therefore I am"....

The intent of my post here is not to focus on Dolezal's deceit but rather to pose the question why is: "I think [I'm a different gender than I am biologically] therefore I am" acceptable and embraced by society but: "I think [I'm a different race than I am biologically] therefore I am" is not accepted and even brushed aside as poppycock?

I'm not making light of this; I'm not, for example saying that because transgender by thought is accepted that thinking you're an animal, a chair, etc should also be accepted. I think if transgender than why not transracial is a very legitimate question.....

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Sure if your mother is black and your father is white you be trans-racial. Just because I think I'm a cow doesn't make me one.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Sure if your mother is black and your father is white you be trans-racial. Just because I think I'm a cow doesn't make me one.

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Just for argument's sake/devil's advocacy, I think there is actually a trans species movement.

Fortunately we're not at a point where we're willing to accept and encourage that level of crazy.

At any rate, I think it's laughable for someone with 2 white parents, Blonde hair, Blue eyes, and couldn't be more European if they had stepped off the Mayflower 398 years ago, to claim they're anything else but white.

Looks like the poor girl lives in a tanning bed, or dumps thousands of dollars in spray on tans. Either of the 2 are more liable to cause cancer than just laying out in the sun. She's got a screw loose, and most of the black people I've talked to about it tend to feel insulted that she'd lie about who she is, what her parentage is - biologically not in her head - to get where she was.

It probably also has a lot to do with claiming that her white father was a black man. If she lied about that, she's probably also lying about 'drawing herself as black at age 4,' and that black raggedy anne doll her aunt supposedly made. From where I sit, this is just the ugly side of white guilt & the resulting complex from her misbegotten shame in what she actually is. Trans-anything people don't create some twisted fantasy of what their parentage/lineage is. Even the trans-species ones. I tend to think they have a screw loose too, but so long as they're not lying or hurting anyone/anything, I can accept them and their craziness.

My hope for tolerance is that someday, being xxxx race, gender, etc... is not a condition for or against you getting a job anywhere.

I can't see where all of this Social Engineering has really done any good. But then again, I'm a 56 yr old white male.

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Originally Posted by kelbro

My hope for tolerance is that someday, being xxxx race, gender, etc... is not a condition for or against you getting a job anywhere.

I can't see where all of this Social Engineering has really done any good. But then again, I'm a 56 yr old white male.

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The issue is that a Caucasian misrepresented her ethnicity to gain a position of leadership in an organization devoted to the furtherance of that other ethnicity's well being. The whole thing would have been considered bizarre in past decades, but now in this alternative reality we seem to find ourselves in, it is par for the course. :thinking:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

The issue is that a Caucasian misrepresented her ethnicity to gain a position of leadership in an organization devoted to the furtherance of that other ethnicity's well being. The whole thing would have been considered bizarre in past decades, but now in this alternative reality we seem to find ourselves in, it is par for the course. :thinking:

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Understood. It's the presumed NEED for any group that has a race or gender in their title that is disappointing to me.

I don't care who you think you are, who you love, where your relatives came from. Just leave things a little better than you found them and we all win.

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Originally Posted by kelbro

Understood. It's the presumed NEED for any group that has a race or gender in their title that is disappointing to me.

I don't care who you think you are, who you love, where your relatives came from. Just leave things a little better than you found them and we all win.

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I agree. I was listening to the late Pastor J. Vernon Mcgee on a radio broadcast of a sermon. I was in my car and didn't hear the beginning, so I don't know which book of the Bible it was. JVM was originally from Kentucky, though he pastored most of his life in Los Angeles.

The sermon was from the '60s and he said (paraphrasing) 'a lot of people are talking about integration nowadays.' I took a deep breath wondering what he would say ..... he said, 'In heaven there will be no segregation but all will be one.' That is the truth. We have to wait for it, but the day will come.

Really it's like during the draft while wars were going on and some folks filed for conscientious objector status. Anyone can claim it but if you want the classification you have to prove it by past deeds.

Similarly, anyone can claim to be anything they want. You can claim to be the King of England or Napoleon's great grandson or the surviving Romanov but in the end it's all meaningless you have to prove it and show what gives you that status.

I'm not sure what the OP is trying to do here. I suspect his real motive is to imply all this transgender stuff is nonsense by comparing this woman to them. The comparison is a false equivalent.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I'm not sure what the OP is trying to do here. I suspect his real motive is to imply all this transgender stuff is nonsense by comparing this woman to them. The comparison is a false equivalent.

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No. My bad in using Dolezal as an example since deception is a key factor in her particular case.

I don't have a motive and my opinion in regard to transgender is not relevant. Society has simply shifted recognizing gender based on biology to gender based on the subjective perception of the individual. Generations from now people would give a blank stare to someone who says gender is based on biology because in the future gender will be based on perception and won't be based on biology. It is what it is.

Gender is evolving to be based on an individual's perception of who they think they are irrespective of their biology, period. It is what it is. My only point is that a person can also perceive themselves to be a different race irrespective of their biology and I don't think it's any different than gender perceptions.

Trying to differentiate between gender and race in this regard in relation to the way someone may perceive themselves opposite from their biology will get us into stereotypes....

"He dressed up in girl's clothes even as a child and has always been effeminate. He's always thought of himself as a woman. As such, society should recognize him as a woman based on his perception of himself...."

"The white girl grew up in a largely black neighborhood. Her step-siblings are black. She has only always listed to rap music and has always had the same mannerisms and talks in the same vernacular as her black friends and peers. She has always thought of herself as black."

Yes, not all women are effeminate, not all black people listen to rap music or talk in a certain categorical vernacular........

My point is that I don't think it's right to recognize gender perceptions but refuse as a society to accept race perceptions. "We accept [ ], but [ ] is just plain crazy" when both perceptions are based on something different than the person's biology.

Seems to me that for baby boomers and those born in preceding generations this is all cut from the same cloth. Insanity. There was a lot wrong with the 1950s, such as the essentially separate and unequal society of that, and previous times, but there was a lot right with those times too. On many things "we"in the USA were all on the same page. Most of us anyway.

The generations since have been brainwashed with liberal propaganda and since the late '60s 'counter culture' and the sexual revolution anything goes, as long as it isn't the Judeo-Christian ethic we once shared in this country. Think like that and the totalitarian lefties will seek your head on a plate.

My intent with the post though is that society can decide collectively that as a majority it believes "X". Right or wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral, reality based or fantastical, logical or illogical, my point is that people as well as on a larger scale, societies can choose to believe anything. Debating the merits of beliefs isn't my intent.

Bottom line in regard to my post: Transgender including simply by thought = OK. Transracial including simply by thought = Not OK. My opinion is that it doesn't seem right to accept the one but reject the other. That's all.

Much of this gender stuff has been going on since the Roman Empire (and probably before) and there is serious scientific inquiry as to it happening in our closer relatives in the primate world.

Most of it has just been underground and hidden. I know the rightees would rather it stay that way and maybe if you can't pray it away it will just go away. I think most "liberals" are just saying recognize it and accept it and move on.

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Originally Posted by ChrisL

My intent with the post though is that society can decide collectively that as a majority it believes "X". Right or wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral, reality based or fantastical, logical or illogical, my point is that people as well as on a larger scale, societies can choose to believe anything. Debating the merits of beliefs isn't my intent.

Bottom line in regard to my post: Transgender including simply by thought = OK. Transracial including simply by thought = Not OK. My opinion is that it doesn't seem right to accept the one but reject the other. That's all.

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The defect in your argument is transgender by thought. I'm sure there may be some who just decide to be that way but the greater majority do because there are physical manifestations in their bodies and or brains that bring them to that decision. In our society you pay a big price when you make that decision and the ramifications will preclude someone just willy nilly saying gee, I want to be a woman not a man.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The defect in your argument is transgender by thought. I'm sure there may be some who just decide to be that way but the greater majority do because there are physical manifestations in their bodies and or brains that bring them to that decision. In our society you pay a big price when you make that decision and the ramifications will preclude someone just willy nilly saying gee, I want to be a woman not a man.

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The defect in my argument? I'm repeating what is accepted by society at present. Would you mean then, the defect in society's argument?

Maybe things will evolve into being anchored more concretely in science but I'm referring to the here and now.

It is a fact, that at present, there is no mandatory medical standard for transgenger recognition. Nope.
No: "You must 'live as a woman' for X number of days, weeks, months, years for society to recognize you as a woman/man, etc. Nope.
You must be post-op for society to believe you. Nope.
Must have a childhood history of acting like the opposite sex. Nope
We could go on and on....
Unless you're aware of something I'm not?

Bottom line is that, in the here and now, there is no medical certification using science to prove someone's gender perception opposite their biological gender being legitimate rather than being a bogus claim. So, yes, in fact in the here and now, someone CAN say or can think they're the opposite gender by fiat and in fact society recognizes this to the extent that someone can declare they are a woman today and back to believing they're a male next week, next year, etc. I'm not making this up, nor am I passing judgement. I'm stating fact.

We may be under the assumption that anyone who may think of themselves as transracial is either outright fabricating a lie or doesn't really believe it and is just making such a statement based on some ulterior motive. Unless someone is hermaphroditic, I think there's more scientific evidence for transracial than transgender given the potential for a racially diverse linneage for anyone other than a person who, along with their entire ancestry, has been in an homogeneous society.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I guess her birth certificate is phony like Obama eh?

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She claimed Native American status to get special grants and scholarships without any evidence other then she thought she had heard that from a relative..

no different from Donzel other than color

My thoughts are this. Never use the term "transgender". It gives legitimacy to the insane notion that gender is debatable.

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Originally Posted by OCDshaver

My thoughts are this. Never use the term "transgender". It gives legitimacy to the insane notion that gender is debatable.

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Transgender no doubt is a hot button issue. Perhaps a new thread could be started for debating the merits or lack thereof of society's acceptance of transgender? :shrug:

I want to get opinions on something specific in comparing and contrasting the societal acceptance of transgender and the societal rejection of transracial.

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Originally Posted by ChrisL

Transgender no doubt is a hot button issue. Perhaps a new thread could be started for debating the merits or lack thereof of society's acceptance of transgender? :shrug:

I want to get opinions on something specific in comparing and contrasting the societal acceptance of transgender and the societal rejection of transracial.

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Well, you might correctly assume from my response that not all of society accepts the concept of "transgender". Likewise, I will confirm that I do not accept the concept of transracial. The mere fact that as a society we have gotten to the point where this kind of thing is being debated underscores how we have collectively lost our minds. Where this idea that we could "identify" with something to make it so is a concept that eludes me. People in western society have become so afraid to be labeled racist, sexist, homophobic, whatever, that they are willing to go along with whatever insane notion the next person dreams up. Tax day is coming up. Tell the IRS that you identify with not owing them anything. Got stopped driving drunk? Tell the cop you identify with being sober. If we use the idea of "identifying" as a means to establishing reality, nothing is real anymore.

my question is, how big of a minority do you need to be to receive special protection/rights?

Read this and try not to lose your mind.

College students struggle to tell a white man he isn&#39;t a Chinese woman - Washington Times

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Originally Posted by tintin

my question is, how big of a minority do you need to be to receive special protection/rights?

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One with a big mouth and good lawyers...........
~Richard

The Washington Times? It might as well be Breitbart.

You all know, at one time maybe in the 1970s and 60s if (for example)a white man walked down the street hand in hand with a black woman they would be subject to curses and have things thrown at them and death threats and that was in New York City. I can well imagine what would play out in the South. Now of course it's a common sight and except for certain folks it's accepted and means nothing. The same with all this transgender stuff. Down the road it will mean nothing.

There may not be any medical or psychological standard but to imply that some guy woke up today and said gee I think I'll be a woman just for fun is ridiculous.

The world is full of nuts who think they are someone else and are convinced of it and to compare that to transgender...like I said before is a false equivalent and is just using a scenario like that to push an agenda either social or political.

Where did it come from.......

Saul Alinsky”s Doctrine: 8 steps to topple a nation and create a socialist state

1) Healthcare — Control healthcare and you control the people

2) Poverty — Increase the Poverty level as high as possible, poor people are easier to control and will not fight back if you are providing everything for them to live.

3) Debt — Increase the debt to an unsustainable level. That way you are able to increase taxes, and this will produce more poverty.

4) Gun Control — Remove the ability to defend themselves from the Government. That way you are able to create a police state.

5) Welfare — Take control of every aspect of their lives (Food, Housing, and Income).

6) Education — Take control of what people read and listen to — take control of what children learn in school.

7) Religion — Remove the belief in the God from the Government and schools.

8) Class Warfare — Divide the people into the wealthy and the poor. This will cause more discontent and it will be easier to take (Tax) the wealthy with the support of the poor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Alinsky more info from 60's and 70's
~Richard

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The Washington Times? It might as well be Breitbart.

You all know, at one time maybe in the 1970s and 60s if (for example)a white man walked down the street hand in hand with a black woman they would be subject to curses and have things thrown at them and death threats and that was in New York City. I can well imagine what would play out in the South. Now of course it's a common sight and except for certain folks it's accepted and means nothing. The same with all this transgender stuff. Down the road it will mean nothing.

There may not be any medical or psychological standard but to imply that some guy woke up today and said gee I think I'll be a woman just for fun is ridiculous.

The world is full of nuts who think they are someone else and are convinced of it and to compare that to transgender...like I said before is a false equivalent and is just using a scenario like that to push an agenda either social or political.

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So because it's a source you don't agree with it didn't happen? I'd rather you be right but this kind of thing is exactly what we are discussing.

As for the rest, cool your jets there because NO ONE is advocating any form of aggression toward anyone. But if you are waiting for me to accept another persons distorted sense of reality you'll have to wait for the next, more enlightened generation. But that's the argument. You either accept this nonsense or you are a bigot right out of the sixties. Label me a bigot because I really don't care.

So why don't we just cut to the chase here and forget all the subterfuge and you guys just say what you really mean.

You want our Fuhrer to sign an executive order outlawing everything transgender. Go ahead say it. It will make you all feel better.

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Originally Posted by Geezer

Where did it come from.......

Saul Alinsky”s Doctrine: 8 steps to topple a nation and create a socialist state

1) Healthcare — Control healthcare and you control the people

2) Poverty — Increase the Poverty level as high as possible, poor people are easier to control and will not fight back if you are providing everything for them to live.

3) Debt — Increase the debt to an unsustainable level. That way you are able to increase taxes, and this will produce more poverty.

4) Gun Control — Remove the ability to defend themselves from the Government. That way you are able to create a police state.

5) Welfare — Take control of every aspect of their lives (Food, Housing, and Income).

6) Education — Take control of what people read and listen to — take control of what children learn in school.

7) Religion — Remove the belief in the God from the Government and schools.

8) Class Warfare — Divide the people into the wealthy and the poor. This will cause more discontent and it will be easier to take (Tax) the wealthy with the support of the poor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Alinsky more info from 60's and 70's
~Richard

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Careful there Richard. I foresee you being called a conspiracy theorist. :argue:

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

So why don't we just cut to the chase here and forget all the subterfuge and you guys just say what you really mean.

You want our Fuhrer to sign an executive order outlawing everything transgender. Go ahead say it. It will make you all feel better.

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Yeah, that's exactly it.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

So why don't we just cut to the chase here and forget all the subterfuge and you guys just say what you really mean.

You want our Fuhrer to sign an executive order outlawing everything transgender. Go ahead say it. It will make you all feel better.

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Methinks thou dost protest too much.....
What a stupid, stupid thread! :roflmao

This is Straight Razor Place. Let's get with the program, eh?
Plenty of forums out there for these 'other' things.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

So why don't we just cut to the chase here and forget all the subterfuge and you guys just say what you really mean.

You want our Fuhrer to sign an executive order outlawing everything transgender. Go ahead say it. It will make you all feel better.

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Geez, Nelson! Not my intent in starting this thread to spiral into politics. You're bringing it there though.

Civil discourse and debate. I think we're capable.