The Problem with Teachers
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Oh that was great HAHA!!!
I'm proud to have been raised by a teacher/principal. He makes me proud every day of my life.
RT
While I agree that most teachers care a great deal about their jobs and the impact they have on children, the primary (k through 12)education system here in the US is a complete cluster fu:cen .
If it was so great, why do we even have "Hooked on Phonics" and "Sylvan Learning Center", let alone, why are they thriving?
From the high school I graduated from just over 40% of the students were proficient in math, science, reading and writing.
That is sad.
I think a lot of what you point out here (and I agree - kids can't even find the U.S. on a map:rolleyes: ) happens because parents don't engage their kids and get them inspired about learning for its own sake. Much of what I learned during my school years, I learned by reading on my own- beyond what the school told me to read because I genuinely found it interesting. My parents had much to do with that. Even a great school can't teach a kid that isn't prepared to learn. Just myQuote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
$.02 rant...
Jordan
I can't speak for other areas of academic preparedness, but the kids coming out of high school today can't write worth crap. After three years of editing my college newspaper, four years working with student writing interns and a semester teaching feature writing, I've seen about six students who could write in a clear, well-organized fashion.
Colleges spend much of their time on remedial education--basic stuff students should have learned in sixth grade.
Pennsylvania's teachers earn more than a lot of engineers I know.
Bring on school vouchers!
(Running for cover...)
Josh
There was a time when being a teacher was highly respectable. Not anymore. Today's teachers are underpaid. Never mind that they have summer off. Dedicated teachers spend part of that time increasing their own education. Dedicated teachers spend 12-14 hours per day during the school year organizing their lesson plan and grading papers and projects. And with budget cuts, they spend their own money for items to be used in the classroom. They are supposed to educate our young, yet they are not allowed to discipline the unruly or keep control in their own classroom. Parents don't spend time working with their kids at home, and professional athletes make more in one or two weeks than a teacher makes in a year. The quality of teachers is falling. I can't imagine why.
RT
Josh,Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshEarl
I completely, whole heartedly agree with you. Let the free market run its course. Let those schools which do not perform implode and burn. Give inner city students the ability to leave the slums and get a good educations in schools which actually do their jobs.
I am currently looking to move, and purchase a house. My search is constrained by the school district, and its performance. I am lucky, as I have the ability to move to almost any school district I want, (which basically gives me the voucher for my children to attend any public school in the greater metro area). How about the poor which have no choice in where their children attend school? Everyone bitches and moans that vouchers will close inner-city schools. GOOD!!! If they don't meet the expectations of the consumers, they perish.
Also, I agree that parents need to be more involved in their children's education and upbringing, but that is a whole issue which could have its own forum dedicated to it. We live in a Daycare society where parents spend time with their kids on the weekends, and then wonder why their children are failing, disrespectful and aloof. If people would stop trying to keep up with the Joneses, and be happy with what they have, there would be no need for both parents to work, and one of them could actually, *****GASP******** rear their child (children).
Matt
RT,
I agree with much of what you said, and I think coming from Pennsylvania I have a unique perspective. Our teachers are the second or third highest paid in the country, even before factoring in the rock-bottom cost of living around here. The mean salary for teachers is almost twice that of the average for all Pennsylvanians.
Our schools are mediocre, and the private schools routinely whip their backsides when it comes to any measure.
And the state leads the nation when it comes to teacher strikes. They don't want to have to contribute to their healthcare plans.
I went to a college that educated a lot of teachers, and I was shocked that many of the education majors were studying education because it was reputed to be an easy major.
I love good teachers; I just think the system as it stands attracts the wrong crowd.
Just my .02 :),
Josh
It's no surprise to me that Johnny can't read. .. and the situation has been getting worse every year. Sylvan, etc. are thriving because a few parents know their kids aren't learning at school and know that the school is powerless to fix it. My wife is a teacher, so I know a little about why and how the public education system got into this state.Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
IMHO, it's mostly related to lack of discipline and a general lack of respect for the school and teachers, by both the students and parents. You would be appalled at what kids are allowed to do (and not do) today... by their parents. Parents (and their lawyers) have taken away almost all of a school's/teacher's ability to maintain order and a learning environment in a classroom. If a kid doesn't want to cooperate (and there's a couple in every class that don't) then the public school system is pretty much powerless to get them to. Meanwhile, every other student in the class is affected by the disruptions these uncooperative kids create. It's sort of a "protect the rights of a few so the multitudes can suffer" situation.
When I was a kid (50 years ago) we were expected to stay in our seats, keep quiet, raise our hands and ask permission if we wanted to speak or move about,and most importantly we were expected to pay attention and do the work. If we violated these "rules" we got punished by the teacher or sent to the principal for even more sever punishment... and we got disciplined again when we got home by our parents. Back then a kid didn't have to be very disruptive before they got suspended or expelled... and then the parents had to find a different school for the kid and pay for it.
When my kid was in school (25 years ago) things had changed dramatically... if a kid refused to cooperate teachers weren't allowed to punish him... it was up to the parent. It took a lot more to get expelled, but the parent still had to pay for an alternative school, so there was some parental motivation to discipline their kids.
Today's kids feel empowered to just get up and roam around the classroom, talk whenever they want, tell a teacher where to get off, and to decide whether they want to do the work or not. And for some reason, kids are not allowed to fail anymore... so even when they get a failing grade they're passed on to the next grade level because it's the parent's decision, not the schools whether to pass a student. Today most parents defend their kids to the hilt and never question the truthfulness of what the kid has told them. Today a kid has to do something pretty despicable to get expelled... and then the public school system has to find and pay for an alternative school. What a great deal... the parents are completely off the hook. Hence we now find ourselves in the situation where everything has to be taken care of by the public school system which is powerless to control the factors which affect the outcome. What a sad state of affairs for the public education system. Is it any wonder a high percentage of teachers leave the profession in less than 10-years? The media always reports it as a low pay problem, but lack of ability to control discipline is equally at fault in a majority of the cases according to surveys. The no-child-left-behind act (thank you GW) has only exacerbated the situation... now a teacher can be fired for student failures resulting from something (s)he can't control... discipline.
As an example of how absurd things are today, recently my wife (who used to teach 6th grade and now teaches art to pre-school thru 8th grade students at her school) was helping a 6th grade student with an assignment at their desk. She happened to glance up and see another student who had gotten out of her seat and was in the process of pulling a chair out from under another girl. Fearing someone would get hurt, my wife yelled at her to "Mary, stop!". Who do you think got in trouble? Yep, my wife... for "yelling at the girl". For "not showing her the respect she deserved". For "damaging the kid's self esteem"! The girl's mother actually called my wife the next day and threatened to "come down there and kick your but"! Further, she told my wife she had instructed her daughter that "if (my wife) ever yells at you again I want you to kick that chair up her a$$". Now we're not talking about a ghetto neighborhood here... this school is in an upper-middle class neighborhood... this girl's parents are both professionals.
What did the Principal do? Well, not what you'd probably expect, even though this girl had a history of getting in trouble several times a week between all her various teacher's. Mostly the Principal was worried about what she would do if the mother threatened to pull the kid out of the school (hence the school would lose money for that student) or demand that the kid be sent to another teacher for art (since my wife's the only art teacher at the school). The Principal was unconcerned that this parent threatened to kick my wife's a$$, nor was she concerned that the student had acted this way. In fact, she sided with the student because my wife did not "display respect for the student" when she yelled "stop" at her. I'm criticizing the Principal, but I also know she's a victim too since she's just responding with what the district superintendent has decided to do because of all the parental threats of lawsuits and moving their kids to a charter school. With some support from their parents, clearly the inmates (kids) are now running the asylum (the schools).
If we want to fix the schools, we have to give the schools the respect and authority they need to get the students to cooperate. Discipline... it worked for thousands of years... why did we feel the need to change it?
Joe,
Amen 1000 percent. I think discipline is one of the main reasons the private schools seem to be more successful. You can't fix societal ills by throwing money at them.
I'm pretty appalled at what even good parents these days let their kids do. And I'm only 26, so the good ol' days weren't that long ago...
Josh
Here a teacher with a Masters and 10-years experience is paid under $40K. Not many engineers are in that situation. And don't start the "only work 9-months a year" thing... most teachers work close to 70-hour weeks across nearly 10 months and then have their "summer" filled with having to attend mandatory courses, etc. for which there's no additional compensation. And so, they can't get a job during the summer to earn extra money. The last number I saw indicated the average engineer worked about 60-hours a week x 50 wks = 3000 hrs; for teachers 70 x 42 wks = 2940 plus whatever is needed for summer courses and seminars to remain certified).Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshEarl
Vouchers are not the solution and the charter/private schools are not, as a whole, providing a better education... their test scores on average are much lower. There are exceptions of course, but I'm talking the national average.
And, what do you think will happen when the public schools are disbanded and all those charter/private schools are forced to accept all students (right now they can pick and choose who they admit)? Easy... they will have all the same students the public schools have today, complete with discipline problems, handicaps, special needs, etc.
I say we need to fix what we broke, not switch to something else that will have all the same problems in short order.
Joe,
Our average teacher salary is around $70K. Starting salaries are in the neighborhood of what you named. And the unions here sure whine a lot... :)
I work with professors, so I know how the "time off" thing goes.
I don't know what the solution is, but raising salaries doesn't necessarily fix the problem. I think the teachers unions are a big part of the problem. Paying more to attract the right people isn't always the same thing as just paying more. Look at the current crop of corporate CEOs. :)
Josh
Arizona is a "right to work" state... hence, unions are reasonably powerless here.
Most of the school districts here have phased out the pay-for-years-experience salary structure. Instead, pay is more directly a function of additional education and the scores students get on standardized tests. Except for a state retirement system, benefits are minimal... big deductibles, good sized co-pays on medical and prescriptions, minimal dental and no vision coverage.
And while there's still a tenure system, teachers who fail to produce the student test results needed will not have their contracts renewed. The problem in that is even great teachers cannot control test results when they can't control discipline. It's nice to say the teacher has to "motivate the student to learn", to "engage them", to "have more interesting lessons"... but we all know there are students that won't respond to any of those approaches... and it only takes one in any given class period to disrupt everyone else's learning experience that day.
My wife has had students as young as 2nd grade flat tell her "I'm not going to to the assignment and there's nothing you can do about it". And they're right. How sad is that!
AZ
Don't you think that students who willfully disregard class instructions should fail the course? Hold them back a year, and then see if their attitude does not change. If it does not change, hold them back another year, and humiliate them. If that doesn't work, send them to school on the short bus. Is this not the situation? Can teachers not fail their students? Can students not be held back? what about making "in class participation" part of the overall grade for the course, and if there is disruption, then the student fails that part of the course, and possible the whole class.
I understand that teachers do not want to put up with a problem child two years in a row, and therefore will "pass" the student with a D-, but if the teacher really cared, they would fail the student, and hold him/her back.
There is more to it than that. If you fail a student, it makes the school look bad, and has a negative effect on the school’s bottom line. There is a lot of pressure from the school system not to fail students.Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
-Michael
If schools don't fail kids that deserve it, then what is the purpose? The degree/diploma carries no weight because illiterate individuals hold the same title. I mean no disrespect to anyone, but this situation is just asinine. I thought the education system was messed up, but is it really this bad?
I agree, and you see the same thing happening at the college level. In colleges, there's no incentive to keep standards high, and there are lots of pressures to lower them. Profs who grade tough get complaints from students and parents lodged against them. Accrediting bodies may revoke their blessing if grades drop too low. Students can lose academic and athletic scholarships. The schools lose money if a student drops out.... On and on.Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
Education majors, for example, have to maintain a 3.0 GPA to get state certified when they graduate. Guess which major has the highest average GPA at my alma mater?
I taught a feature writing class last year, and I made my students read four books and write six or seven feature stories. I got some flak at the end of the year for being so "tough." I thought I was a pushover. :)
I believe one major problem in higher ed is that our society pushes everyone to go to college. College was a good experience for me, and I'm glad I went. But I think it's perfectly OK for someone to work as a plumber or a mechanic. Most of them probably make more money than me anyway. :D
Schools want to hang onto every teenage bundle of money that walks in, so the temptation is to lower standards to accomodate the kids who are only there because they want to make more money someday, and they think a degree is the way to do it.
What's the solution? :shrug:
Josh
Josh - it's the same in tertiary education in Australia. Since we removed technical colleges (where trades and vocational training were taught) and made Universities money making enterprises, standards have dropped. I admit straight up that I'm an elitist when it comes to degrees. I feel they should mean something more than a glorified attendance certificate.
I regularly have to explain to my employers why I fail over 25% of my statistical theory class. I tell them flat out that there's a minimum standard I require from third year students, and that I'm usually being generous only failing, say, 30% of them. I'm then required to put in writing a full justification of my assessment, every time. I can tell you, it's tempting to just give up and lower the bar, but I refuse! Tough love never hurt anyone in the long run, except perhaps the one dishing it out...
Anyway, I'm ranting.
James.
James,
Keep fighting the good fight. A degree should mean something. I like the law school line where they tell you, "Look to your left and right. One of those people won't graduate." Attaining a higher degree should be a struggle, not four years to drink beer.
I don't think schools are really out just to make money; most private schools in the U.S. "lose" money every year and have to supplement tuition income with fundraising. They're essentially providing a service for below cost, which probably helps create more demand...
The issue to me is a lack of respect for manual labor and rampant consumerism that isn't satisfied with a modest living.... American society reminds me of something I read once about what happened among freed slaves after our Civil War. The former slaves thought that hard work was something, well, slaves did. So a lot of them wanted to do something else, and the thing to do was become a preacher.
That works for a while, but once you exceed a certain preacher-to-parishioner ratio, the whole thing starts to unravel. :) We have a society of people who want to be "preachers."
Now I'm ranting, too. It feels good, though. :)
Josh
When I was a kid fear of failing was a pretty strong motivator. Today most kids know that they will never be failed, so there's no fear there at all. Most teachers would love to be able to fail children who need it... not as a vindictive thing, but because repeating a grade gives the child a chance to catch up and succeed... a chance to feel good about their accomplishments. Passing them just places them in a situation where there's no hope of them succeeding and they give up trying even more so.Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
In the district my wife works in (and I believe it's generally true lots of other places across the nation) the parent has the final say as to whether their child is held back. Although my wife dutifully fills out the paperwork required to fail a student for several kids each year, only one parent has ever agreed in 10 years. Passing on failing kids is called "social promotion". Most parents are in self denial and claim they will help their child next year, etc. But they never do and so next year's teacher fills out the paperwork, etc. and history repeats itself. My wife has had kids in 6th grade that are still reading at the 2nd grade level and their parents continue to insist they be promoted.
I think one positive step would be to re-introduce discipline into school systems. And I'm talking serious board swinging!
RT
And hurt their self esteem? Not to mention their poor little tender backsides. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by rtaylor61
As a hopeful future high school teacher, even i have to say the education system is a crapshoot. My g/f is in the college of education right now and her mom is a recently retired teacher and there are about 4 more teachers on that side of the family so often times i get to hear the nitty gritty detais about how terrible the system is.
It's almost to the point where kids aren't allowed to fail anymore. My g/f's mom complains that if she submits a failing grade to the school system, they call her and ask if they can pass the kid. She'll refuse and she does the paperwork, and the whole justification for failing process and even then, the mark still comes out as a passing grade. Now I hear that they want to change the system so that if a kid has less than 15 absenses from the class is passing and has a 'good attitude' and if the parents give their permission, then the kid doesn't have to write the final. So now the teacher doesn't even have the control to make kids write a test anymore. The owness in on parents to realize that "hey, maybe my kid isn't doing too well" but heaven forbid a parent would dare make their kid write a final exam...
Maybe my school was just a little harsh or something. Our policy was that you had to have less than 3 absenses, with a grade of at least 80% before you got the choice to not write a final (and it was limited to two exemptions if you had a full course load) and even then the teacher had the right to make you write the final. I had a great biology teacher who made me write my biology exam even though i had something like a 93% in the class, because she didn't believe in allowing exemptions from a final.
I've been fortunate to have some great teachers. My old physics teacher made us do pushups if he caught us rocking on our chairs! Sounds ridiculous maybe, but by the end of my time with him you can be damn sure i sat straight in my chair and listened to him (i could also do 100 nonstop pushups...).
There are exceptions, but theres an overall degredation in integrity in the new generation, and it stems out into other areas. A few years ago, I worked at McDonalds as a high school job. I drank and partied, and occasionally i would show up at work hungover, but I got there, and i didn't complain, and i worked my ass off for 8 hours surrounded by the sweet sweet smell of delicious processed food. Now i go back to talk to my old managers and they tell me stories like how a girl didn't come in because she couldn't find her shoes, or a guy doesn't come in because he just doesn't feel like it, and they can't even count how many times someone just gets fed up and walks off the job, something that never happened when i worked there.
And now today, how many articles have I read about university students cheating on exams with no consequences. It's outlined very clearly in the university policy "You cheat, you fail. There's a chance you can get expelled" Last I heard, something like +60% of students confess to cheating on exams. Punishments are a tap (not even a slap) on the hand. A university degree is meaningless but at the same time it's the golden standard for many of the 'prestigious' jobs.
Kids don't wanna work, adults don't want to have to punish. It's all too non-confrontational, no one wants to step on someones toes and it really makes me sad to see it. It's doing no one any good
Luckily, here in Belgiu, kids get failed if they are not up to par. That is not to say there are no special circumstances sometimes, but generally the teacher gets the last word.
There are teachers that can make all the difference in the world.
I have had a couple of teachers in my life that really made the difference between passing with flying colours and failing miserably.
It is my experience that there are a few gifted teachers that can lift an entire class to the next level. Sadly they are few and far between.
I do think that we don't give them enough credit though. Teaching is a thankless job mostly, and teachers have to work hard for little appreciation and even less pay (not counting the teachers in college).
Ya know, when I was a kid that's the way it worked. And nobody was hurt in any way other than their egos.Quote:
Originally Posted by rtaylor61
Today, if a public school teacher even touches a student they risk a problem. That's unfortunate because younger children need contact with their teachers... hugs and pats on the head (so to speak). Most teachers are reluctant to do that anymore for fear of getting in trouble. And in a discipline sense, a teacher today will avoid touching a child in any way. In the old days, a teacher would never hesitate to grab a misbehaving child's arm and lead/push them to a chair and tell them to sit there and be quiet, or to intervene in a fight and pull the kids apart. If a teacher did any of those things today and little Johnny complains to the principal or his parents the teacher will certainly get some disciplinary action and risks being fired if the parents complain. Today most schools have a discipline program that puts the majority of the onus on the parent because the school gets in trouble if they really discipline the child. But most parents don't get that, many still believe the school is administering the discipline, and many are pretty uninvolved in their kids lives and seemingly don't care until something catastrophic occurs. Most kids are smart and they know how to play the system if they as so inclined. They quickly figure out that the school is pretty much powerless to really discipline them. And they know that their parents are busy and won't pay much attention to what's going on, so they can feed them a line of BS... and bingo.. the kid is pretty much in control of their own world. By the time a kid gets that job at McDonalds that edk442 spoke about they've become a master of manipulation and believe they can do whatever they want whenever they want.
I think the reality is that one size doesn't fit all when it comes to administering discipline. Some kids respond to being sent to time-out but absolutely rebel at being paddled. Others are just the opposite. And of course a few don't respond to anything. But regardless of the disciplinary action, ALL authority figures need to be able to consistently hold the child accountable... not just the parents. And we NEED authority figures, lots of them! Teachers, neighbors, relatives, etc. I don't often agree with Hillary Clinton, but I do when she says "it takes a village to raise a child". We've given our young kids too much responsibility and independence. We expect them to grow up and act like adults long before they've had a chance to understand and appreciate the cultural and social norms and expectations of our society.
Man, it's a strange feeling - it feels good to know that my fiancee, my parents and I aren't the only ones who see these things, but at the same time, it feels bad to know that my fiancee, my parents and I aren't the only ones who see these things. It means that things really ARE this bad, and I'm not just off my rocker.
Parents aren't allowed to discipline their kids anymore. Well, the ones that care enough to do so aren't allowed to anymore. I remember when I was a kid, you'd see parents lecturing or yelling at their kids in public. Once or twice, I remember kids getting an outright spanking on the spot! If you even talk harshly to your kids within earshot of someone, you'd best be looking over your shoulder for CPS to come and take your kids away!
Joe - what district does your wife teach at? I couldn't believe my eyes when I read your original post! I have two kids in the Arizona public school system, and I'm just curious if it's from the same district. I could see it happening; it seems that the middle-to-upper-class parents are the worst offenders. And the schools don't help! Everything revolves around those damn AIMS tests! The administrators seem to want teachers to teach nothing except what it'll take to get passing grades on the AIMS exams rather than what'll help prepare them for real life. If the curriculum I was taught growing up was still around, AIMS would be a breeze! They challenged us to learn! By the time I was in sixth grade, I was testing at a graduated high-school senior level on all of those placement tests! My sixth grade teacher was a real hard-ass. He used to throw erasers at kids that were not paying attention or misbehaving (not directly at them, more at their desks). He was also teaching grammar and such out of college textbooks, and we were all getting it, so you can't tell me that kids can't learn stuff that's a little more challenging!
One of the many problems plaguing our society is that people, especially kids, are addicted to choice. It used to be, "Behave, or else!" Now kids, and often adults as well, can choose to behave or not, because there is no "or else"! It's the same with work ethic - the McDonald's story given here - those morons chose to drink (most likely underage) knowing that they'd be hung over, and then they chose not to deal with the consequences of their actions. That girl probably had a dozen or so pairs of shoes she could've worn to work, but because she couldn't find the ones she wanted, she chose not to go to work, either that or just outright lied to get out of work. They didn't look at going to a job that they supposedly committed to doing as a have-to-do issue! People don't take any responsibility for their actions anymore. It's always someone else's fault. They pressured me to drink/keep drinking. I had nothing to do with it. Sure, I put the glass out there for more liquor to be poured into. Sure, I'm the one who put it up to my mouth and swallowed. But it's their fault for telling me to do it. BTW, I'm not knocking drinking. I've been known to enjoy a few drinks from time to time, but I enjoy it responsibly!
One final note - I once thought about being a teacher, but I just don't see it happening the way things are now. I wouldn't even make it to the aforementioned 10-year mark before losing my patience. God help us if things don't change.
A little off topic here but you should save your written justification and use the same one every term. I bet it would take the admins a decade or two to figure it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
:thinking: That could work - but I'm an eternal optimist. One of these days I'll get a class that all pass (I have a dream).Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildtim
I was talking to my brother last night - he's a primary school teacher. He's taught at a remote western NSW school for the past 11 years. He said that this year is the best of his life, teaching-wise. Great group of children, but more importantly from his point of view, a great group of parents. They take an active role in their children's learning, support him (my brother) as opposed to working against him, re-enforce their kids learning at home, and all contact him regularly to find out what's going on and how they can help.
He actually passed up an opportunity for a better paid, more supervisory/less teaching job so he could continue to teach his class and work with such great parents. He sounded the happiest I've ever heard him during the past 11 years. Just goes to show how far a little support can go.
This is not a swipe at anyone who doesn't teach, but I reckon they should change the old saying to "Those that can, do. Those that care, teach."
James.
As a child, I clearly remember telling my mother that I was sorry I broke her vase. And right before she hit me, I just as clearly remember her telling me it didn't matter how sorry I was... the vase was still broken. A while later in life I was an engineering manager... absolutely one of the best pieces of advice I ever got was "you never do anyone a favor by cutting them a break".Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
The wisdom in these have proven themselves to me thousands of times... not just in management and business dealings, but in all facets of life. When something is wrong, its wrong... and you shouldn't excuse it as right or ok. And excuses, no matter how valid, will not change the fact that it's wrong. I think one of the major failures of society today is that we allow our younger people to excuse their failures and bad decision making as "OK" if they have an excuse.
Joe - I agree 100 percent. My father used to always say "before you do anything, think of the consequences. After you do anything, accept the consequences". Then he'd whack me ;)
There are consequences to everything we do, and I personally don't believe we do anyone any favours for their later lives by shielding them (within reason) from those consequences when they are younger. In fact, you could view it as our duty as responsible adults in preparing the young people of today to be the responsible adults of tomorrow.
(gee, it's easy to get on that soapbox isn't it? Sorry :w )
James.
:roflmao That's so 'old school'!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
X
Quote:
Originally Posted by xman
I'd say thats exactly the point!
:OT
Isn't it a shame that many of our comedians understand the problems of the path we are on and can see what changes brought us here while our "wise" leaders seem so clueless?
bumped because it deserves to be seen again
I agree that the public school system is, by and large, in an appalling state of disrepair. on a fun little fyi, here in texas, corporal punishment is still allowed in some school districts. (mostly for primary school) I have been thinking about this for some time, especially as my nieces and nephews are attending school, and have come to the following idea. (disclaimer: I went to school in grapevine as a kid, so I was absurdly lucky when it comes to public schooling. at the time, it was one of the top 100 schools in the nation in terms of teachers, facilities, and overall student achievment. my wife went to a private (religious) high school and learned next to nothing. so I don't think public schools are all awful, nor do I think private schools are infallible)
1. vouchers. we need 'em. privative the school system; the nanny-state run monstrosity of an education system we have now is completely untenable.
2. private schools can have whatever rules they want. make the parents sign contracts that allow you to beat their kids, if you have to. if they don't like your school, they don't have to sign up. make clear rules on why their little "angel" can be permanently expelled.
3. the US gov't is about as good at running schools as they are anything else, which is to say, incompetent bordering on criminal neglect. all kids aren't the same, why do we have a one-size-fits all approach to education?
4. the no child left behind act is a crime perpetrated against smart kids to make the parents of stupid kids feel better. because of that !@#$%^ act and the ones that preceeded it, I didn't get to take a MATH class my senior year of high school. they needed the teacher to do a section of special ed. makes me sick to my stomach.
5. special ed in general is an outrageous waste of taxpayer money that should not be allowed to continue. why coddle the bottom 5% at the expense of not pushing the limits of the top 5%? who's gonna grow up and cure cancer, anyway?
6. coddling of children AT ALL is wasteful and sets them up for failure later in life. would you rather your kid failed a grade in high school, got made fun of, got serious and went on to succeed in life? or would you rather their hands get held all the way until adult life so they can fail then? (when the consequences are much worse)
7. end preferential treatment of borderline-retarded athletes. this one is a big deal for me, being a Texan, 'cause football players had a free pass. didn't turn in homework, didn't take tests, etc. teachers, who normally were happy to fail anyone that couldn't keep up, would pass them all so that UIL rules would allow them to play football. even the bravest teacher would be terrified of "benching" the star QB with a failing grade.
8. create a culture where intelligence is valued above all else. one of the biggest reasons I see kids doing badly in schools is the culture of stupidity that permeates the school system. (even back when I was in high school) why is the captain of the football team glorified and the captain of the chess team or math club harassed? who is gonna wind up working for who someday? if kids got teased as much for being dumb as they did for being smart, I think we'd start to see some improvement. it's an uphill battle, with most teen idols, movie stars, athletes, etc, being barely-literate high school dropouts. it's a shame our generation hasn't given these kids better role models. I am equally culpable here, but I do what I can to encourage my nephews that being smart and getting good grades is very cool.
9. spend money on labs, not stadiums. the school district I attended in high school just finished (coupla years ago) blowing several MILLION dollars on a new stadium for the football team. why? why not buy better books and computers? why not hire a few new teachers? maybe, just maybe, we should let kids join whatever sports league they want to join, OUTSIDE of school. I don't doubt that athletics are fun, and that you make friends and build all sorts of camraderie on a school sports team. I know I did. but it was entirely tangential to the learning process. totally unnecessary. let's quit wasting taxpayer money on it, hmm?
10. reward good teachers, punish bad ones. a tricky business, but worthwhile. it's useless and misleading to base a teacher's performance off pass/fail ratios. they can't be held responsible for the kids they get, so it's not equal. I propose that teachers be periodically monitored and ranked by an impartial commitee, then the better ones given better raises. this is done is most other fields, I have no idea why it's not the same for teachers. in my field, the best employee who does the best work gets a bigger raise/bonus than the others, no one has a problem with it.
anyhow, there's just a few ideas I've been kicking around, a none-too-modest proposal I've been thinking about. thoughts?
Bravo dear sir, bravo!
The sickeningly sad part is that everything you said often translates into the public university area. There are college SENIORS that still have their mom take care of everything for them. Numbers 7 and 9 absolutely kill me. Every time I think about them I want to bang my head on my desk. I know a guy that's a product of #7- highschool star football player, now the guy is struggling at a community college and thinks he's arrived in life as a fast food restaurant manager. Don't even get me started on all the college athletes with fake GPA's and even more fake degrees.
Our local newspaper just did an expose on the Kinestesiology program here at U of M Turns out the somehow 43% of all scholarship athletes enter this program and that the GPA of freshman entering the program 2.3 where the freshman class as a whole averaged 3.3 in high school. They also mentioned how that program has a disproportionate success rate at passing and graduating students. Was very reveling and embarrassing for the university.
By the was #10 is easy, outlaw teachers unions.
Another U of M cock up, there was just a union strike for higher pay on campus, it canceled classes for a couple of days until it was settled. The union...wait for it.... the Graduate student assistants union. Now thats going a little overboard with the organization don't you think, and the administration caved to them.
Great post Jockeys
An intriguing idea, but not very practical IMO. There are tons of issues that would make equal education opportunities unavailable to many students given, among other things, the disparities between funding available in rural, urban, and suburban areas. For example, there's an elementary school district (ie, Kindergarten - 8th grade) here in AZ (less than 50-mi from center-city Phoenix) that has a schoolhouse, averages about 5 students, one full-time accredited teacher, a part-time aide, and a budget of under $100K. It's very unlikely a private school would even bother trying to accommodate an area like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by jockeys
In my mind the major issue is that the public schools are overly influenced by parental demands that their little darlings get everything they want their way... thus schools have been forced to given up their rights to control the kids so they don't damage their self esteem, so they always get good grades whether deserved or not, so they make the honor role all the time, yada yada yada. If you haven't been around a school in the past 10-years... I mean so you really see what happens there, not just what your kids tell you, you can't draw any valid conclusions since it doesn't work like it did when you were a kid. You simply can't imagine how little respect a teacher gets from their students and the parents these days.
While you're correct that private schools can do whatever they want, I can only assume that most for-profit schools would make keeping their enrollment up their first priority, not discipline or academic achievement. Hence, I can only guess that any parental pressure would cause them to roll over faster than a hooker who just saw the color of your money. I just don't see how that will help solve the problem.
I will reply to your comments individually in red
you are assuming that a private school would operate under the same assumptions and motivations that are true for a public school. this is demonstrably untrue. a private school is a BUSINESS, and is usually run as such. (e.g. concerned with the bottom line and growing the brand, etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by azjoe
a public school is a big factory for turning money into... nothing. i used to write accounting software for texas public schools, and let me tell you: wasting money is rewarded. the more you spend, the more you'll get next year, without any real results to show for it. if you don't spend your whole budget, you don't GET that same money the next year, so the waste is colossal. businesses have financial accountability, gov't institutions really don't.
Most of the post here are right on the money.
The biggest problem seems to be the parents (just because you can breed, doesn't mean you should) - like the Chinese proverb "There is only one perfect child, and every mother has it".
For many parents, the kids are accessories, like the fancy car, big house...they are viewed as symbols of success: "Oh, isn't Buffy a wonderful person! She works full-time and has three kids!"...many parents are oblivious to their kids activities..they can't be bothered, as they are too busy being "fulfilled."
To keep the kids out of their hair, they have them doped up for various "disorders". I worked with a woman who was very vocal about her kids ADHD (he's all of 4 years old)....I commented that it seems odd that none of these disorders were around years ago. She asked what I thought would address the issue...I said several hours a week of manual labor would probably work wonders. I thought she was going to have a seizure.
When I was a cop in Baltimore, I used to get calls to come and make kids go to school...the parents told me it wasn't their job.
These spoiled little spawn have no idea of personal accountability, initiative, or what it means to work...then they finally join the workforce, where reality dumps a big bucket of ice water right in their crotch: Surprise! You aren't anything special! I am not afraid of your mommy, so you had better perform or your ass is out!
1. I'm not sure vouchers would work...the same spoiled little brats would be dumped into the good schools, because going to a voucher school would become a status symbol.
2. Return discipline to the schools. It doesn't have to be physical - my Mom rarely spanked my brother or me - she was better at mind games "Oh, you are going to behave like that? Fine...you will not be going to <insert fun activity here>. Since you now have a lot of free time, you can <insert hated work-like activity here>!"
Any student who threatens a teacher - expelled. Let Biff and Buffy pay for tutoring their little tax deduction.
Any parent who threatens a teacher, the kid is removed from school, removed from all teams, and the parent is charged criminally. Same for the sports-freak parents (those trying to relive their sports dreams through their kids - no matter the cost)
Disruptive in class? Watch your grade-point average drop. Oh, and we will now make your disciplinary file available to all college registrars nationwide. You gotta pass a background check to get a job, why not for school?
3. Remove the cult of sports from the schools. I am paying taxes for you to learn to become a contributing member of society, not cruise through school because you can excel at a sport. My respect for professional sports is so diminished, I do not think there is a device that can measure my indifference. If Biff and Buffy want little Johnny to be a jock - pay for it out of their own pockets as part of a local club (as in many European countries). Same for cheerleaders, etc. Keep Phys Ed, just to get people off their butts.
4. In the case of azjoe's wife, as the threat was made directly to his wife by the parent, I wonder what that mother would say when she was pulled over for an open assault warrant? I bet that would put a knot in her golf shorts! (Court Magistrate: Mrs. AzJoe, when hearing this threat over the phone, were you in fear of your person? Mrs. AzJoe: Yes, you never know nowadays what some of these parents will do!...and thus a warrant is sworn out.) I'm sure the spineless leadership would absolutely freak out, but to threaten physical harm is w-a-a-a-y across the line. Sadly, it will take some extreme examples to be made of parents who behave like this psycho. The kid could be charged as well...maybe some time in Juvenile Custody would adjust the attitude.
5. Higher standards. I graduated in 1981 from a Central Illinois High School...I had good teachers and some real losers. The curriculum was very strong in math and sciences, but weak in Lit, History. Good in languages - I graduated having taken French, German, and Latin. English classes were done well also. I still used the same grammar book I had in HS as a reference when editing project documents. When I went into the Army, I attended the Defense Language Institute, for Russian. Attrition rate: 70% If you didn't work, you didn't pass.
6. Demand higher standards for teachers as well. A friend of mine has a daughter who is gifted in languages. Because of a slacker German teacher, she became very discouraged. Luckily, I encourage the mom to push the kid to keep at it, regardless of Herr Butthead. She did and took the German placement test for the U of CO. She was one of 4 kids who passed - the other 3 were native speakers. An associate of the German instructor at the college is an attorney specializing in international law. He said he always has opening for fresh law students who speak foreign languages. She is now going to attend the law school.
In short (yea, I know...too late), it comes down to discipline and respect. My hardest teachers are the ones I remember as being of the most help. A teacher who cares and will staunchly defend the student's right to learn is a treasure of a "price above rubies." My hat goes off to azjoe's Mrs.
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