Thread: Mans Intelligence

It would be a shame for this thread to end on such a flippant note. I hope you guys have something to add more along the lines of the spirit of this thread!

Wow - this thread is huge! Good one Mark

I believe pretty much everyone is intelligent - it's getting them to use it (and to use it altruistically, at least sometimes) that's the problem.

I've often wondered about Capitalism in this context. This may be a naive, or cynical, thought but one of the reasons I think that Capitalism has become so ubiquitous is that it allows people to indulge in self-interested behaviour - rewards it, in fact.

It's a lot easier to be altruistic if you don't have to worry about how you are going to afford to feed your children this week. Capitalism, from my understanding of it, will always generate the "haves" and the "have-not"s even if the underlying "wealth" of a country is increased - the relative gap between rich and poor is necessarily maintained by the mechanisms that generate overall wealth. You only have to look at how many companies farm out to cheap overseas workers because the domestic workers are too expensive to see that. And hey, it makes good economic sense to do so - your stockholders will applaud you for that type of decision when you show record profit at your next AGM.

And even if you have a system specifically designed to eliminate this issue (eg communism), history has shown that human self-interest rises to the top of the heap and your "worker's paradise" turns into a totalitarian cesspool.

Perhaps the issue is not govt. in and of itself - perhaps it's a complex interaction between democracy, capitalism, and individualism??

James.

there is a constant struggle between the needs of the person and the needs of the many. Capitalism is the system which rewards a person for their own achievement, and allows sociatal movement. a person can come from nothing, and achieve more than most ever dream. You are correct that there is a growing gap between the "haves" and the "have nots", but this situtaion is global. I don't know of a society where this gap is not growing. However, I would rather have the ability to determine the outcome of my life, rather than rely upon the government.

That's why I play powerball!!!

Originally Posted by mhailey

there is a constant struggle between the needs of the person and the needs of the many. Capitalism is the system which rewards a person for their own achievement, and allows sociatal movement. a person can come from nothing, and achieve more than most ever dream. You are correct that there is a growing gap between the "haves" and the "have nots", but this situtaion is global. I don't know of a society where this gap is not growing. However, I would rather have the ability to determine the outcome of my life, rather than rely upon the government.

That's why I play powerball!!!

The Lottery: A tax on people that can't do math.

Originally Posted by mhailey

there is a constant struggle between the needs of the person and the needs of the many. Capitalism is the system which rewards a person for their own achievement, and allows sociatal movement. a person can come from nothing, and achieve more than most ever dream. You are correct that there is a growing gap between the "haves" and the "have nots", but this situtaion is global. I don't know of a society where this gap is not growing. However, I would rather have the ability to determine the outcome of my life, rather than rely upon the government.

That's why I play powerball!!!

Why is altruism looked upon as some higher evolved state? Bees are altruistic -most animals live for the better good of the group ---but at least humans can toy with the concept of the individual. I think people are far too often willing to give up their individuality ---it has to be one of the most dificult things for a human to not bend to the will of the group.

Charity out of kindness is one thing but government forced altruism is not of free spririt and will but is government control of another name. In a purely altruistic system, what are you living for ?--- when everyone is living for someone else, the only thing human is the notion of humanity in the abstract --and why is someone you do not even know more important than you? --

Haven't we seen what attrocities occur when individuals start to live for the state or brotherhood and disregard their rights as free thinking individuals? --- can you point out attrocities that compare when individuals act like individuals?

I believe Churchill said " it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried" --well I think he could have said the same thing about capitalism in the context of economics ---their is no perfect system and never will be.

Justin

My views.... since i'm sure you all wanted to hear them.

I'm glad to live in a capitalist society.

When you give someone something they haven't earned you take away their pride.
You take away their drive, their self esteem.

I have never received charity of any kind (public or private) and would be ashamed to.

I like the fact that the harder I work, the more I will have.
Not because material things are all important, but because I want to keep what I earn and not hve it taken and given to someone else.

I despise the individual who disposes of what another has generated without care.

A man who produces only to have it taken away with no restitution is a slave.

Originally Posted by mhailey

there is a constant struggle between the needs of the person and the needs of the many. Capitalism is the system which rewards a person for their own achievement, and allows sociatal movement. a person can come from nothing, and achieve more than most ever dream. You are correct that there is a growing gap between the "haves" and the "have nots", but this situtaion is global. I don't know of a society where this gap is not growing. However, I would rather have the ability to determine the outcome of my life, rather than rely upon the government.

That's why I play powerball!!!

Sure, I agree that the ability to determine your own life outcomes is very important. But you don't need capitalism to determine your life's outcome - you need freedom. The problem, as I see it, is that we are all so inculcated into the capitalistic system that we tend to equate freedom with financial independence. And unfortunately for many people that is, to all intents and purposes, the truth.

I also agree with you that the "haves" and "have-nots" gap is not capitalism-specific. But the fact that this issue occurs in all socio-economic systems I think simply highlights that you cannot rely on the good will of others to do the right thing by their fellow man. Even in "gold standard" systems like capitalism.

Man, I hope you hit the jackpot in the Powerball - I can work out the probability of winning for you if you like (over here it's 1 chance in about 8.5 million)

James.

Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

My views.... since i'm sure you all wanted to hear them.

I'm glad to live in a capitalist society.

When you give someone something they haven't earned you take away their pride.
You take away their drive, their self esteem.

I have never received charity of any kind (public or private) and would be ashamed to.

I like the fact that the harder I work, the more I will have.
Not because material things are all important, but because I want to keep what I earn and not hve it taken and given to someone else.

I despise the individual who disposes of what another has generated without care.

A man who produces only to have it taken away with no restitution is a slave.

Justin

Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

My views.... since i'm sure you all wanted to hear them.

I'm glad to live in a capitalist society.

When you give someone something they haven't earned you take away their pride.
You take away their drive, their self esteem.

I have never received charity of any kind (public or private) and would be ashamed to.

I like the fact that the harder I work, the more I will have.
Not because material things are all important, but because I want to keep what I earn and not hve it taken and given to someone else.

I despise the individual who disposes of what another has generated without care.

A man who produces only to have it taken away with no restitution is a slave.

I always like to hear your views, GW, and generally I agree with you. As I do in this case.

I'm not anti-capitalism. I didn't expect my previous post would be construed that way, actually, but there you go.

Nor do I think altruism is the pinnacle of human accomplishment. But it appeared to me from previous posts that in order to remove some layers of government, what was needed was for people to self-moderate some of their behaviours. I was merely trying to point out that in a capitalistic system that rewards self-interested behaviour, this may be a little tricky and is perhaps why our countries appear so over-governed.

James.