Mans Intelligence

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Originally Posted by JMS

I will not say whether I agree or not because that is not what this thread was intended for! I will say however, Bruno, that you are being a bit presumptuous.

Now, lets get back to business. No more finger wagging!

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It is not my intention to be presumptuous, though I realize I may have come off that way. But I also felt that it needed saying. As far as I can see there are only 2 solutions:
- change the constitution to reflect the reality.
- change the reality to reflect the constitution.
You have to pick one or let go of the notion that the constitution means anything.

This thread is about governments, and how and if they should be limited in their power etc, so i thought my comment was entirely on topic.

But I will not continue this subthread. I'll see if I can add anything to the remainder of the discussion. Let's have a look at those federalist papers then. :hmmm:
Friends?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

It is not my intention to be presumptuous, though I realize I may have come off that way. But I also felt that it needed saying. As far as I can see there are only 2 solutions:
- change the constitution to reflect the reality.
- change the reality to reflect the constitution.
You have to pick one or let go of the notion that the constitution means anything.

This thread is about governments, and how and if they should be limited in their power etc, so i thought my comment was entirely on topic.

But I will not continue this subthread. I'll see if I can add anything to the remainder of the discussion. Let's have a look at those federalist papers then. :hmmm:
Friends?

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As always, Bruno, friends!
Yes, I suppose it is about governments, but my intention was not to speak specifically about particular governments but ideals and principals so that we could more clearly understand each other instead of their knee jerk reactions to certain political and spiritual topics!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

It is not my intention to be presumptuous, though I realize I may have come off that way. But I also felt that it needed saying. As far as I can see there are only 2 solutions:
- change the constitution to reflect the reality.
- change the reality to reflect the constitution.
You have to pick one or let go of the notion that the constitution means anything.

This thread is about governments, and how and if they should be limited in their power etc, so i thought my comment was entirely on topic.

But I will not continue this subthread. I'll see if I can add anything to the remainder of the discussion. Let's have a look at those federalist papers then. :hmmm:
Friends?

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Bruno your friendship is never in question and I appreciate anything you can contribute -- you presented a good point, one that bugs a lot of us. However friendship and the honesty that goes along with it is a two way street and there are plenty of things Americans don't get about Europe as well --but this is Mark's thread so let's give the dog his day ;) .

Justin

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Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Bruno your friendship is never in question and I appreciate anything you can contribute -- you presented a good point, one that bugs a lot of us. However friendship and the honesty that goes along with it is a two way street and there are plenty of things Americans don't get about Europe as well --but this is Mark's thread so let's give the dog his day ;) .

Justin

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Are you calling me a dog?



I can't believe it, Justin is calling me a dog.

(Where's the teary eyed smily, damn it!)

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Originally Posted by JMS

Are you calling me a dog?



I can't believe it, Justin is calling me a dog.

(Where's the teary eyed smily, damn it!)

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But I mean the best kind of dog (hey I'll take a dog over most) :nj

Justin

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Originally Posted by JMS

Are you calling me a dog?



I can't believe it, Justin is calling me a dog.

(Where's the teary eyed smily, damn it!)

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I have to agree that this forums is severely lacking in the smiley department.
there are no hugging or kissing smileys. :w

Maybe that is not considered manly enough for this forums for men who shave like Manly Men.
:roflmao

No doubt there is much to say about Europeans as well. It would greatly surprise me otherwise.

I am trying to come up with a witty remark about the dog, but I cannot think of anything at the moment. :thinking:

Ah well never mind. Maybe Lou can say something funny.
Whatever... ;)

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Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Hey Brendon -- didn't you guys have a hurricane lately?

Justin

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Yep. We get them often actually. They pass by, but rarely hit. All this one did was ruin my fishing with higher than usual winds...

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I have to agree that this forums is severely lacking in the smiley department.
there are no hugging or kissing smileys. :w

Maybe that is not considered manly enough for this forums for men who shave like Manly Men.
:roflmao

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Here you are fellas:

http://www.smileyhut.com/love/cheekkiss.gif

http://www.smileyhut.com/friends/hug.gif

http://www.smileyhut.com/friends/pile.gif

James. http://www.smileyhut.com/characters/aussie.gif

:nono:The assumption of intelligence is ignorance.

Ignorance is bliss only in the fact that one doesn’t know any better.

Willful Ignorance can also speak to a lack of effort. A bad faith decision to avoid becoming informed about something so as to avoid having to make undesirable decisions.

Vincible ignorance refers to the intentional refusal to understand or consider other points of view or to consider the consequences of a particular proposition or action.

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Originally Posted by Creel

:nono:The assumption of intelligence is ignorance.

Ignorance is bliss only in the fact that one doesn’t know any better.

Willful Ignorance can also speak to a lack of effort. A bad faith decision to avoid becoming informed about something so as to avoid having to make undesirable decisions.

Vincible ignorance refers to the intentional refusal to understand or consider other points of view or to consider the consequences of a particular proposition or action.

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I am curious Creel, have you ever met anyone without intelligence?
I have met a couple but more often I come across willfull stupidity and intellectual laziness, both of which can be cured by higher expectations, at least that is my view.

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I am curious Creel, have you ever met anyone without intelligence?

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Sadly in the palliative ward for severe head trauma victims; though I hope with all my heart that the Doctors were just ignorant in their interpretation.

But point made just the same.

We have all seen and suffered the consequences when people stubbornly refuse to use their intelligence.

History proves one thing clear as crystal: Mankind has shown a unique ability to NOT learn from his mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Creel

Sadly in the palliative ward for severe head trauma victims; though I hope with all my heart that the Doctors were just ignorant in their interpretation.

But point made just the same.

We have all seen and suffered the consequences when people stubbornly refuse to use their intelligence.

History proves one thing clear as crystal: Mankind has shown a unique ability to NOT learn from his mistakes.

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It is interesting that you used the word palliative which is exactly how I see most social programs, which is dealing with a problem without addressing the underlying cause of that problem!

The assumption of intelligence is ignorance? maybe but the assumption of ignorance is arrogance and elitism and is at the heart of what Mark has issue with (I think).

And who are these Godly men who assume all are ignorant? --- yes, mankind does not learn from its mistakes, it keeps replacing one form of totalitarianism for another --just another manifestation of elitism and the assumption that a few know best.


Jusitin

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Originally Posted by jaegerhund

The assumption of intelligence is ignorance? maybe but the assumption of ignorance is arrogance and elitism and is at the heart of what Mark has issue with (I think).

And who are these Godly men who assume all are ignorant? --- yes, mankind does not learn from its mistakes, it keeps replacing one form of totalitarianism for another --just another manifestation of elitism and the assumption that a few know best.


Jusitin

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Right again Justin! You must have a sight glass pointed directly at my brain.

For me this has been quite an enjoyable thread with thoughtful insight from all, and quite friendly with no malice! These are the discussions I truly appreciate!
Is there anyone else out there who would like to contribute? I would truly enjoy hearing from all!!

Just to clarify something:

As you know I have recently become father for the second time.
I give the baby the last bottle of the day so that my wife go go to bed early and get some extra sleep (*) so in the evening I just do whatever until I can feed the baby and go to bed myself. This also means that I am house bound from 8 or 9PM onwards, every night (**).

That is also the reason I post so much these days. It is not because I am quarrelsome, want to make a point or push an agenda. It is simply because having these discussions is the closest thing I have atm to going to the pub and discussing politics and current events among friends.
I really enjoy these discussions.

(*) We tried to switch just once so that she would give the last bottle and I would give the 4 AM bottle. We both agreed afterwards that we should never do that again.
While I can live on 5 or 6 hours of sleep per night, I cannot cope with broken nights and I was really grumpy the following day.

(**)This is also the reason we invested in a quality excercise bike and a stepmaster. That way I can workout several times per week without having to leave the house.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

...I was really grumpy the following day.

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As opposed to your normal level of grumpy?

:roflmao

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I read it and I agree.



Bush is the figurehead for a lot of directives that go directly against the constitution. In the name of the war against terrorism, the US government can
- arrest you without cause
- hold you indefinitely without bringing charges
- take away your right to an attorney, or even the right to be heard.
- send you to another country to be 'interrogated'.
- freeze all your assets without recourse if you are even suspected of having contact with terrorists.

There is all this talk about how important the constitution is, and how people have unalienatable (is that a word?) rights.
But from what I can see, people are happy enough just to stand aside and let the government do whatever as long as it gives them a false sense of security.

'I am not a terrorist so I have nothing to fear.' does not apply. There are people who have been captured, held for months or years, tortured, deprived of all contact, and when someone finally got a clue to their innocence, they got plonked out on the street without an explanation or even an acknowledgement that mistakes were made.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Are you standing aside or are you doing something?

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Holy crap, Bruno actually said something useful !!

I take back everything (most of it) I ever said (mumbled) about him.

and a decent quote to boot!

all except the torture part.

before
Bruno - bad
torture- good

now
Bruno - OK
torture - super fantastic

TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE !!!!!

it's a clash of cultures
I say kill them all and let God sort them out (kinda sounds already decided don't it?)

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

Holy crap, Bruno actually said something useful !!

I take back everything (most of it) I ever said (mumbled) about him.

and a decent quote to boot!

all except the torture part.

before
Bruno - bad
torture- good

now
Bruno - OK
torture - super fantastic

TORTURE TORTURE TORTURE !!!!!

it's a clash of cultures
I say kill them all and let God sort them out (kinda sounds already decided don't it?)

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looks like you have a new friend, Bruno! Lucky you.;):D
Maybe you guys could do a little elephant hunting together or bash the heads of a few baby seals!? I could go for some ivory scales and a couple of seal skin strops!;)

It would be a shame for this thread to end on such a flippant note. I hope you guys have something to add more along the lines of the spirit of this thread!

Wow - this thread is huge! Good one Mark :bow

I believe pretty much everyone is intelligent - it's getting them to use it (and to use it altruistically, at least sometimes) that's the problem.

I've often wondered about Capitalism in this context. This may be a naive, or cynical, thought but one of the reasons I think that Capitalism has become so ubiquitous is that it allows people to indulge in self-interested behaviour - rewards it, in fact.

It's a lot easier to be altruistic if you don't have to worry about how you are going to afford to feed your children this week. Capitalism, from my understanding of it, will always generate the "haves" and the "have-not"s even if the underlying "wealth" of a country is increased - the relative gap between rich and poor is necessarily maintained by the mechanisms that generate overall wealth. You only have to look at how many companies farm out to cheap overseas workers because the domestic workers are too expensive to see that. And hey, it makes good economic sense to do so - your stockholders will applaud you for that type of decision when you show record profit at your next AGM.

And even if you have a system specifically designed to eliminate this issue (eg communism), history has shown that human self-interest rises to the top of the heap and your "worker's paradise" turns into a totalitarian cesspool.

Perhaps the issue is not govt. in and of itself - perhaps it's a complex interaction between democracy, capitalism, and individualism??

James.

there is a constant struggle between the needs of the person and the needs of the many. Capitalism is the system which rewards a person for their own achievement, and allows sociatal movement. a person can come from nothing, and achieve more than most ever dream. You are correct that there is a growing gap between the "haves" and the "have nots", but this situtaion is global. I don't know of a society where this gap is not growing. However, I would rather have the ability to determine the outcome of my life, rather than rely upon the government.

That's why I play powerball!!!

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Originally Posted by mhailey

there is a constant struggle between the needs of the person and the needs of the many. Capitalism is the system which rewards a person for their own achievement, and allows sociatal movement. a person can come from nothing, and achieve more than most ever dream. You are correct that there is a growing gap between the "haves" and the "have nots", but this situtaion is global. I don't know of a society where this gap is not growing. However, I would rather have the ability to determine the outcome of my life, rather than rely upon the government.

That's why I play powerball!!!

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The Lottery: A tax on people that can't do math.

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Originally Posted by mhailey

there is a constant struggle between the needs of the person and the needs of the many. Capitalism is the system which rewards a person for their own achievement, and allows sociatal movement. a person can come from nothing, and achieve more than most ever dream. You are correct that there is a growing gap between the "haves" and the "have nots", but this situtaion is global. I don't know of a society where this gap is not growing. However, I would rather have the ability to determine the outcome of my life, rather than rely upon the government.

That's why I play powerball!!!

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:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao

Why is altruism looked upon as some higher evolved state? Bees are altruistic -most animals live for the better good of the group ---but at least humans can toy with the concept of the individual. I think people are far too often willing to give up their individuality ---it has to be one of the most dificult things for a human to not bend to the will of the group.

Charity out of kindness is one thing but government forced altruism is not of free spririt and will but is government control of another name. In a purely altruistic system, what are you living for ?--- when everyone is living for someone else, the only thing human is the notion of humanity in the abstract --and why is someone you do not even know more important than you? --

Haven't we seen what attrocities occur when individuals start to live for the state or brotherhood and disregard their rights as free thinking individuals? --- can you point out attrocities that compare when individuals act like individuals?

I believe Churchill said " it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried" --well I think he could have said the same thing about capitalism in the context of economics ---their is no perfect system and never will be.

Justin

My views.... since i'm sure you all wanted to hear them.

I'm glad to live in a capitalist society.

When you give someone something they haven't earned you take away their pride.
You take away their drive, their self esteem.

I have never received charity of any kind (public or private) and would be ashamed to.

I like the fact that the harder I work, the more I will have.
Not because material things are all important, but because I want to keep what I earn and not hve it taken and given to someone else.

I despise the individual who disposes of what another has generated without care.

A man who produces only to have it taken away with no restitution is a slave.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mhailey

there is a constant struggle between the needs of the person and the needs of the many. Capitalism is the system which rewards a person for their own achievement, and allows sociatal movement. a person can come from nothing, and achieve more than most ever dream. You are correct that there is a growing gap between the "haves" and the "have nots", but this situtaion is global. I don't know of a society where this gap is not growing. However, I would rather have the ability to determine the outcome of my life, rather than rely upon the government.

That's why I play powerball!!!

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Sure, I agree that the ability to determine your own life outcomes is very important. But you don't need capitalism to determine your life's outcome - you need freedom. The problem, as I see it, is that we are all so inculcated into the capitalistic system that we tend to equate freedom with financial independence. And unfortunately for many people that is, to all intents and purposes, the truth.

I also agree with you that the "haves" and "have-nots" gap is not capitalism-specific. But the fact that this issue occurs in all socio-economic systems I think simply highlights that you cannot rely on the good will of others to do the right thing by their fellow man. Even in "gold standard" systems like capitalism.

Man, I hope you hit the jackpot in the Powerball - I can work out the probability of winning for you if you like ;) (over here it's 1 chance in about 8.5 million)

James.

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

My views.... since i'm sure you all wanted to hear them.

I'm glad to live in a capitalist society.

When you give someone something they haven't earned you take away their pride.
You take away their drive, their self esteem.

I have never received charity of any kind (public or private) and would be ashamed to.

I like the fact that the harder I work, the more I will have.
Not because material things are all important, but because I want to keep what I earn and not hve it taken and given to someone else.

I despise the individual who disposes of what another has generated without care.

A man who produces only to have it taken away with no restitution is a slave.

---

:tu

Justin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

My views.... since i'm sure you all wanted to hear them.

I'm glad to live in a capitalist society.

When you give someone something they haven't earned you take away their pride.
You take away their drive, their self esteem.

I have never received charity of any kind (public or private) and would be ashamed to.

I like the fact that the harder I work, the more I will have.
Not because material things are all important, but because I want to keep what I earn and not hve it taken and given to someone else.

I despise the individual who disposes of what another has generated without care.

A man who produces only to have it taken away with no restitution is a slave.

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I always like to hear your views, GW, and generally I agree with you. As I do in this case.

I'm not anti-capitalism. I didn't expect my previous post would be construed that way, actually, but there you go. :shrug:

Nor do I think altruism is the pinnacle of human accomplishment. But it appeared to me from previous posts that in order to remove some layers of government, what was needed was for people to self-moderate some of their behaviours. I was merely trying to point out that in a capitalistic system that rewards self-interested behaviour, this may be a little tricky and is perhaps why our countries appear so over-governed.

James.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

I always like to hear your views, GW, and generally I agree with you. As I do in this case.

I'm not anti-capitalism. I didn't expect my previous post would be construed that way, actually, but there you go. :shrug:

Nor do I think altruism is the pinnacle of human accomplishment. But it appeared to me from previous posts that in order to remove some layers of government, what was needed was for people to self-moderate some of their behaviours. I was merely trying to point out that in a capitalistic system that rewards self-interested behaviour, this may be a little tricky and is perhaps why our countries appear so over-governed.

James.

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Actually, I was surprised to hear such conservative views in one of your earlier posts.
About liberties being whittled away and all.

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

Actually, I was surprised to hear such conservative views in one of your earlier posts.
About liberties being whittled away and all.

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Yeah, I guess you could take that as conservative. It must be a cultural thing - pretty much people who speak out over here on the insidious removal of certain rights are basically left wing :shrug:

Something's getting lost in translation...

James.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

I always like to hear your views, GW, and generally I agree with you. As I do in this case.

I'm not anti-capitalism. I didn't expect my previous post would be construed that way, actually, but there you go. :shrug:

Nor do I think altruism is the pinnacle of human accomplishment. But it appeared to me from previous posts that in order to remove some layers of government, what was needed was for people to self-moderate some of their behaviours. I was merely trying to point out that in a capitalistic system that rewards self-interested behaviour, this may be a little tricky and is perhaps why our countries appear so over-governed.

James.

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Gottcha James and good point.

Justin

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Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Gottcha James and good point.

Justin

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Thanks Justin - sorry I went about it in such a long-winded fashion.

James.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Thanks Justin - sorry I went about it in such a long-winded fashion.

James.

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James --not long winded at all --- I think the forum could use more of your opinion (let it rip;) )

Justin

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

My views.... since i'm sure you all wanted to hear them.

I'm glad to live in a capitalist society.

When you give someone something they haven't earned you take away their pride.
You take away their drive, their self esteem.

I have never received charity of any kind (public or private) and would be ashamed to.

I like the fact that the harder I work, the more I will have.
Not because material things are all important, but because I want to keep what I earn and not hve it taken and given to someone else.

I despise the individual who disposes of what another has generated without care.

A man who produces only to have it taken away with no restitution is a slave.

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Well put Sir!

At the risk of making this thread into an "America is the cause of all the worlds problems" fest I would like to point out that when the pilgrims of 1620 first arrived in America they tried to follow Platos idea of a utopia and almost completely died out. William Bradford, I believe, changed their system from one of group ownership and everything being done for the good of the group, to a society where everyone owned their own plot of land and was responsible for their own production for the good of themselves and their family! What Gov. Bradford found was that in the utopian style society people tended to be lazy and not pull their fair share of the load but under private ownership the community thrived. He concluded that the idea of a utopian society as plato laid it out was sheer arrogance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JMS

Well put Sir!

At the risk of making this thread into an "America is the cause of all the worlds problems" fest I would like to point out that when the pilgrims of 1620 first arrived in America they tried to follow Platos idea of a utopia and almost completely died out. William Bradford, I believe, changed their system from one of group ownership and everything being done for the good of the group, to a society where everyone owned their own plot of land and was responsible for their own production for the good of themselves and their family! What Gov. Bradford found was that in the utopian style society people tended to be lazy and not pull their fair share of the load but under private ownership the community thrived. He concluded that the idea of a utopian society as plato laid it out was sheer arrogance.

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Good bit of info Mark --thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

My views.... since i'm sure you all wanted to hear them.

I'm glad to live in a capitalist society.

When you give someone something they haven't earned you take away their pride.
You take away their drive, their self esteem.

I have never received charity of any kind (public or private) and would be ashamed to.

I like the fact that the harder I work, the more I will have.
Not because material things are all important, but because I want to keep what I earn and not hve it taken and given to someone else.

I despise the individual who disposes of what another has generated without care.

A man who produces only to have it taken away with no restitution is a slave.

---

GW, don't get me going on that rant, My GF has heard that one over and over...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

When you give someone something they haven't earned you take away their pride.
You take away their drive, their self esteem.

I have never received charity of any kind (public or private) and would be ashamed to.

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Would you accept charity if your children were starving and you couldn't get a job to feed them?

I don't want charity either, and I'll do anything I can to prevent it from ever happening. But people are not always in a situation where they can do anything about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Would you accept charity if your children were starving and you couldn't get a job to feed them?

I don't want charity either, and I'll do anything I can to prevent it from ever happening. But people are not always in a situation where they can do anything about it.

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Somehow I've managed to stay (mostly) out of this thread. But...


My parents instilled in me at an early age the importance of being responsible for myself and my actions. Many poor decisions later here I am. One correct decision I made was that to not have children. I vowed early on to not have them because I knew I could take care of myself, but I did not want to be responsible for having to take care of a child (or multiple children).

That being said, I've been in the position in my life where I could have accepted money from the government that they had taken (at the threat of gunpoint) from others. I've been hungry because I didn't. And not "I missed lunch" hungry. "Haven't eaten for 4 days" hungry. I've also (at a different time, obviously) donated tens of thousands of $ to various charitable organizations. The difference between that charity and the "charity" of the government is that I freely gave that $ of my own free will.

All that being said, here's my position: Don't have them if you can't afford them. Once you have them they are your responsibility, not mine or anyone else's. They are yours. Whatever your situation may be, however bad your luck has been, no matter how you get into a bad position, you do not have the right to another person's property.