Thread: Mans Intelligence

I read it and I agree.

Now, no insult is meant but if you hold these values to be so important (as I agree they are) when will you try to take them back from the current administration?

Bush is the figurehead for a lot of directives that go directly against the constitution. In the name of the war against terrorism, the US government can
- arrest you without cause
- hold you indefinitely without bringing charges
- take away your right to an attorney, or even the right to be heard.
- send you to another country to be 'interrogated'.
- freeze all your assets without recourse if you are even suspected of having contact with terrorists.

There is all this talk about how important the constitution is, and how people have unalienatable (is that a word?) rights.
But from what I can see, people are happy enough just to stand aside and let the government do whatever as long as it gives them a false sense of security.

'I am not a terrorist so I have nothing to fear.' does not apply. There are people who have been captured, held for months or years, tortured, deprived of all contact, and when someone finally got a clue to their innocence, they got plonked out on the street without an explanation or even an acknowledgement that mistakes were made.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Are you standing aside or are you doing something?

Who says I don't have problems with it, Bruno. One of my first worries since 9/11 has been the over reaching arms of government ---by the way there are plenty of conservatives in this country that do not believe Bush is a true conservative and his actions are more in line with liberal notions of government power and some idealism of spreading democracy.

But I hope you don't believe this is the first time that the U.S. government has suspended certain rights (freedoms) because of the severity of the situation. Abraham Lincoln , who by many is considered the greatest American president of all time did this considerably to help preserve the Union --- and he did preserve the Union.

So I have worries. And I have worries about an effective means of fighting terrorism.

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson071107.html

and since I would like to spread the criticism around a little :

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson100306.html

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Who says I don't have problems with it, Bruno. One of my first worries since 9/11 has been the over reaching arms of government ---by the way there are plenty of conservatives in this country that do not believe Bush is a true conservative and his actions are more in line with liberal notions of government power and some idealism of spreading democracy.

But I hope you don't believe this is the first time that the U.S. government has suspended certain rights (freedoms) because of the severity of the situation. Abraham Lincoln , who by many is considered the greatest American president of all time did this considerably to help preserve the Union --- and he did preserve the Union.

So I have worries. And I have worries about an effective means of fighting terrorism.

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson071107.html

and since I would like to spread the criticism around a little :

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson100306.html

Dude -

You're my hero.

-whatever

-Lou

Originally Posted by scarface

Dude -

You're my hero.

-whatever

-Lou

I'm not worthy --- but I will take cash or gifts. .

Thanks Mr. Lou (and now I'm off to save the day)

Justin

Originally Posted by Bruno

I read it and I agree.

Now, no insult is meant but if you hold these values to be so important (as I agree they are) when will you try to take them back from the current administration?

Bush is the figurehead for a lot of directives that go directly against the constitution. In the name of the war against terrorism, the US government can
- arrest you without cause
- hold you indefinitely without bringing charges
- take away your right to an attorney, or even the right to be heard.
- send you to another country to be 'interrogated'.
- freeze all your assets without recourse if you are even suspected of having contact with terrorists.

There is all this talk about how important the constitution is, and how people have unalienatable (is that a word?) rights.
But from what I can see, people are happy enough just to stand aside and let the government do whatever as long as it gives them a false sense of security.

'I am not a terrorist so I have nothing to fear.' does not apply. There are people who have been captured, held for months or years, tortured, deprived of all contact, and when someone finally got a clue to their innocence, they got plonked out on the street without an explanation or even an acknowledgement that mistakes were made.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Are you standing aside or are you doing something?

I will not say whether I agree or not because that is not what this thread was intended for! I will say however, Bruno, that you are being a bit presumptuous.

Now, lets get back to business. No more finger wagging!

Originally Posted by JMS

I will not say whether I agree or not because that is not what this thread was intended for! I will say however, Bruno, that you are being a bit presumptuous.

Now, lets get back to business. No more finger wagging!

It is not my intention to be presumptuous, though I realize I may have come off that way. But I also felt that it needed saying. As far as I can see there are only 2 solutions:
- change the constitution to reflect the reality.
- change the reality to reflect the constitution.
You have to pick one or let go of the notion that the constitution means anything.

This thread is about governments, and how and if they should be limited in their power etc, so i thought my comment was entirely on topic.

But I will not continue this subthread. I'll see if I can add anything to the remainder of the discussion. Let's have a look at those federalist papers then.
Friends?

Originally Posted by Bruno

It is not my intention to be presumptuous, though I realize I may have come off that way. But I also felt that it needed saying. As far as I can see there are only 2 solutions:
- change the constitution to reflect the reality.
- change the reality to reflect the constitution.
You have to pick one or let go of the notion that the constitution means anything.

This thread is about governments, and how and if they should be limited in their power etc, so i thought my comment was entirely on topic.

But I will not continue this subthread. I'll see if I can add anything to the remainder of the discussion. Let's have a look at those federalist papers then.
Friends?

As always, Bruno, friends!
Yes, I suppose it is about governments, but my intention was not to speak specifically about particular governments but ideals and principals so that we could more clearly understand each other instead of their knee jerk reactions to certain political and spiritual topics!

Originally Posted by Bruno

It is not my intention to be presumptuous, though I realize I may have come off that way. But I also felt that it needed saying. As far as I can see there are only 2 solutions:
- change the constitution to reflect the reality.
- change the reality to reflect the constitution.
You have to pick one or let go of the notion that the constitution means anything.

This thread is about governments, and how and if they should be limited in their power etc, so i thought my comment was entirely on topic.

But I will not continue this subthread. I'll see if I can add anything to the remainder of the discussion. Let's have a look at those federalist papers then.
Friends?

Bruno your friendship is never in question and I appreciate anything you can contribute -- you presented a good point, one that bugs a lot of us. However friendship and the honesty that goes along with it is a two way street and there are plenty of things Americans don't get about Europe as well --but this is Mark's thread so let's give the dog his day .

Justin

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Bruno your friendship is never in question and I appreciate anything you can contribute -- you presented a good point, one that bugs a lot of us. However friendship and the honesty that goes along with it is a two way street and there are plenty of things Americans don't get about Europe as well --but this is Mark's thread so let's give the dog his day .

Justin

Are you calling me a dog?



I can't believe it, Justin is calling me a dog.

(Where's the teary eyed smily, damn it!)

Originally Posted by JMS

Are you calling me a dog?



I can't believe it, Justin is calling me a dog.

(Where's the teary eyed smily, damn it!)

But I mean the best kind of dog (hey I'll take a dog over most)

Justin