Thread: Mans Intelligence

Well, now that I apparently got my point across, I am glad to see the aussies have balls enough to post!
Any other takers? Canadians perchance? How about a Belgian or two?

.....

Originally Posted by JMS

Well, now that I apparently got my point across, I am glad to see the aussies have balls enough to post!
Any other takers? Canadians perchance? How about a Belgian or two?

This Belgian will post something in 1 hour and 15 minutes, because that is when his lunch break begins.

Ok then.

EDIT: Originally I wrote about why I want to bring specific things like healthcare / army / transportation / energy and environment under governmental control, but it was too much text and I think the following explains it better.

Most people who participated here already seem to think that tiny governments are best, and that most things should be managed by the people themselves.
this only works if 'The People' are responsible enough to do that.
But 'The People' usually aren't. Generally 'The People' are stupid, uninformed, gullible, greedy and small-minded.

This is true everywhere. I try to see things from all sides and act responsibly. But most people I see in daily life don't.
Responsible people would not drink and drive. Responsible people would not leave their baby unattended in the same room with a pitbull. Responsible people would buckle up their children in the car. Responsible people would not need to be told that an accusation of child molesting is not enough to execute someone on the spot...

It is a good thing that 'The People' are not wielding the actual power because it would end in mob rule.
Government officials are also people who are prone to the same problems, but with everything they do they live with the knowledge that we can strip them from their powers come next election day. (slightly off-topic, but this is another reason I like our multiparty system)

I don't think my government is ideal, and I don't think that corruption doesn't happen, but I prefer anything above direct rule by 'The People'.

If I come over as a cynic... It's because I am.
I strive to live responsibly, and I do my very best to raise my children responsibly, but until I can start believing that 'The People' can act responsibly as a group, I'll hold on to the government.

I've met 'The People' on several occasions and I did not like what I saw.

Originally Posted by JMS

Well, now that I apparently got my point across, I am glad to see the aussies have balls enough to post!
Any other takers? Canadians perchance? How about a Belgian or two?

Sure, I'll bite.

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Thanks James for your response:

To me what's the point in being regulated and protected if you never really live ?-- what are you saving yourself up for ?--- so you create some highly regulated safe little utopia -- what? --with the concept that you are going to live forever? Bullshit ---- it is all just a means of controlling people with a father knows best attitude. The rarest thing in this world is a true individual along with a government that protects the freedom of that individual -- even the freedom to do himself harm.

What Mark is talking about is such a rare and knew concept- a small government that is told what to do by the people and is non-intrusive --but it taps into what it really means to be a sentient human being ---- who's able to experience all things for better or worse and to regulate himself --- as in Mark is a one of kind creation who can only define himself through his self-regulating actions not by governments made of other humans --- why give other humans such power over you? -- do you think you're worth so little and are incapable or maybe you think others are incapable and worth little? Maybe this has more to do with how you assign value to a human being --- is he capable or not? --- is he a virus or a marvelous creation? No matter. I'll define myself anyhow.

I'm almost totally on side with this. My only addendum would be that government should not necessarily be small, just moved out of our way. If we're really going to make government support what it means to be human for all the excitement and foible that it is, it needs to do a slightly different job and exalt those who are down. We all benefit from having a strong society. A quick example: here in Vancouver, BC they cut funding to mental health institutes and we ended up with ballooning already massive homeless and addiction problems costing more in resources to deal with than if we had just kept the hospitals going. Thankfully the data is coming in on balancing the budget and, still being so close to the former situation, even the hawks are taking note. Education is another, perhaps the most important, aspect where government should play a large role IMO. Let scholastic merit alone and not wealth be the determining factor of who gets to go to the best schools. The list could go on. I guess what I'm saying is that because our governments are in our way doesn't mean we should make them smaller. I believe that if we do that, some other entity, be it a warlord culture, a corporate one or something else, will simply take its place. I agree with making government work for the people rather than vice versa.

X

Originally Posted by xman

Sure, I'll bite.
I'm almost totally on side with this. My only addendum would be that government should not necessarily be small, just moved out of our way. If we're really going to make government support what it means to be human for all the excitement and foible that it is, it needs to do a slightly different job and exalt those who are down. We all benefit from having a strong society.

I agree wholeheartedly. For society to be strong and stable, government needs to insure that people never reach the desparate stage where they become a burden or a threat to society. This is not just the right thing to do from a moral standpoint, but it also makes economic sense.

Originally Posted by xman

A quick example: here in Vancouver, BC they cut funding to mental health institutes and we ended up with ballooning already massive homeless and addiction problems costing more in resources to deal with than if we had just kept the hospitals going. Thankfully the data is coming in on balancing the budget and, still being so close to the former situation, even the hawks are taking note. Education is another, perhaps the most important, aspect where government should play a large role IMO. Let scholastic merit alone and not wealth be the determining factor of who gets to go to the best schools. The list could go on. I guess what I'm saying is that because our governments are in our way doesn't mean we should make them smaller. I believe that if we do that, some other entity, be it a warlord culture, a corporate one or something else, will simply take its place. I agree with making government work for the people rather than vice versa.

I think you and I agree, is that correct? (though maybe you are less cynic about human nature than I am)

Btw, this reminds me of that scene in 'the Gladiator' where senator whatsisname is accused of not being one of the people. His reply: 'I want to be a man for the people, not of the people.'

Originally Posted by Bruno

Ok then.

EDIT: Originally I wrote about why I want to bring specific things like healthcare / army / transportation / energy and environment under governmental control, but it was too much text and I think the following explains it better.

Most people who participated here already seem to think that tiny governments are best, and that most things should be managed by the people themselves.
this only works if 'The People' are responsible enough to do that.
But 'The People' usually aren't. Generally 'The People' are stupid, uninformed, gullible, greedy and small-minded.

This is true everywhere. I try to see things from all sides and act responsibly. But most people I see in daily life don't.
Responsible people would not drink and drive. Responsible people would not leave their baby unattended in the same room with a pitbull. Responsible people would buckle up their children in the car. Responsible people would not need to be told that an accusation of child molesting is not enough to execute someone on the spot...

It is a good thing that 'The People' are not wielding the actual power because it would end in mob rule.
Government officials are also people who are prone to the same problems, but with everything they do they live with the knowledge that we can strip them from their powers come next election day. (slightly off-topic, but this is another reason I like our multiparty system)

I don't think my government is ideal, and I don't think that corruption doesn't happen, but I prefer anything above direct rule by 'The People'.

If I come over as a cynic... It's because I am.
I strive to live responsibly, and I do my very best to raise my children responsibly, but until I can start believing that 'The People' can act responsibly as a group, I'll hold on to the government.

I've met 'The People' on several occasions and I did not like what I saw.

You don't get mob rule when people act like free thinking individuals ----you get mob rule when people act like sheep ----- "the people" as you define it is just as applicable to a goverment out of wack --- it might not be as recognizable or in your face as a group of civilian with torches (ak- 47's, whatever) who are out of control and causing immediate damages but it can be devestating in more of a long term and insidious sense. The greatest attrocities have not been caused by an individual or groups of free thinking individuals but by people willing to follow goverments that are supposedly doing things for their own good --- how many people died as a result of following a Nazi collective thought or how many millions died in the Soviet take over of Russia in some attempt to create a workers party utopia? Individuals do not cause such attrocities --only people who are willing to follow and be regulated in the hopes of something better. I trust individuals --- I don't trust groups --even when they take the form of a well intentioned government --- I accept that the world will never be perfect and humans have a bad side and I am willing to live with the poblems that are a result of it --- but you can keep your big governments as I don't see how one can not have faith in an individual because of his supposed lackings but is willing to give faith to a government made up of such individuals who ultimately will work off of a mob rule and teach a group think attitude ---- I'd rather die than be neutered and labatomized even for such holy things as altruism and social welfare.

Justin

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

You don't get mob rule when people act like free thinking individuals ----you get mob rule when people act like sheep ----- "the people" as you define it is just as applicable to a goverment out of wack --- it might not be as recognizable or in your face as a group of civilian with torches (ak- 47's, whatever) who are out of control and causing immediate damages but it can be devestating in more of a long term and insidious sense. The greatest attrocities have not been caused by an individual or groups of free thinking individuals but by people willing to follow goverments that are supposedly doing things for their own good --- how many people died as a result of following a Nazi collective thought or how many millions died in the Soviet take over of Russia in some attempt to create a workers party utopia? Individuals do not cause such attrocities --only people who are willing to follow and be regulated in the hopes of something better. I trust individuals --- I don't trust groups --even when they take the form of a well intentioned government --- I accept that the world will never be perfect and humans have a bad side and I am willing to live with the poblems that are a result of it --- but you can keep your big governments as I don't see how one can not have faith in an individual because of his supposed lackings but is willing to give faith to a government made up of such individuals who ultimately will work off of a mob rule and teach a group think attitude ---- I'd rather die than be neutered and labatomized even for such holy things as altruism and social welfare.

Justin

My brother from another mother!

Originally Posted by JMS

My brother from another mother!

Well Mark if it gets bad enough we can do that "Thelma and Louise" thing and hold hands as we drive our car off the mountain cliff. (well maybe not hold hands)


Justin

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Well Mark if it gets bad enough we can do that "Thelma and Louise" thing and hold hands as whe drive our car off the mountain cliff. (well maybe not hold hands)


Justin

Lets not and say we did.