Thread: Sicko the Movie

Just watched the latest Michael Moore movie called "Sicko". While I realise that it seems to be a very one sided view of how the health system works in the U.S, is this for real or what?

Find it interesting from the point of view of our own health system that we have here in Australia.

Cheers
John

From what I've heard it has little resemblance to reality, otherwise people would be flocking to Cuba instead of the U.S. for health care!

Yeah I'm not sure how that part of the movie about jumping on a boat and going to Cuba was very real, and then while there getting the best of medical attention. I don't think so some how, or maybe only while the cameras were rolling.

Cheers
John

There's another interesting movie/doco out at the moment called, I think, "Manufacturing Dissent", or something like that.

I haven't seen it, but from what I've read in reviews it would make an interesting viewing in conjunction with some of Moore's movies.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti - Moore, but I'm not pro - Moore either. I tend not to take anything at face value, so I'm interested to see what other doco makers (with their own biases) think about his work and methods.

James.

James,

That seems like an interesting movie, I shall see if I can catch up with it next week.

Just a short synopsis................ A documentary that looks to distinguish what's fact, fiction, legend, and otherwise as a camera crew trails Michael Moore as he tours with his film, Fahrenheit 9/11

Cheers
John

Moore is very popular around here, basically only because he is very criticising of the Us government.

While I agree with some of his points, he is just as manipulative as the presidential spin meisters.

In bowling for columbine there is a scene where he combines the protests of mourning families with a speech from the NRA president, but he switches scenes several times to obfuscate the fact that he is mixing and matching parts of different speeches in order to create the maximum effect, ripping sentences totally out of context.

I guess it is the same with Sicko.
that being said, I think the US healthcare system is fundamentally flawed.
2 years ago a Us construction worker shot himself in the head with a nailgun.
He survived but he was not too happy because he knew he'd literally work the rest of his life to pay off that one accident that cost him 100K$.


A US friend told me that he had to pay 700 a month for health insurance just for himself, and he still had to copay for doctors visits, and the first couple of 1000's of dollars on a yearly basis had to be paid by himself.

So anyone not lucky enough to have a good medicare and dental plan from his or her employer is basically hosed as soon as something bad happens.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Moore is very popular around here, basically only because he is very criticising of the Us government.

While I agree with some of his points, he is just as manipulative as the presidential spin meisters.

In bowling for columbine there is a scene where he combines the protests of mourning families with a speech from the NRA president, but he switches scenes several times to obfuscate the fact that he is mixing and matching parts of different speeches in order to create the maximum effect, ripping sentences totally out of context.

I guess it is the same with Sicko.
that being said, I think the US healthcare system is fundamentally flawed.
2 years ago a Us construction worker shot himself in the head with a nailgun.
He survived but he was not too happy because he knew he'd literally work the rest of his life to pay off that one accident that cost him 100K$.


A US friend told me that he had to pay 700 a month for health insurance just for himself, and he still had to copay for doctors visits, and the first couple of 1000's of dollars on a yearly basis had to be paid by himself.

So anyone not lucky enough to have a good medicare and dental plan from his or her employer is basically hosed as soon as something bad happens.

Interesting point about health insurance. I don't have insurance for me or my family
I don't believe in health insurance. quite honestly the only thing that health insurance does is make doctors bills too high for the average Joe to afford which only forces him to buy health insurance which he also can't afford! its one big scam as far as I am concerned!
By the way, I am not a rich man but the doctors will still see me and my family and I make payments where I can't afford to pay up front. It's still cheaper than insurance and if there was no insurance I guarantee the cost of seeing a doctor would be cut in half or more!

For normal day to day stuff that is likely ok but what if you or a family member gets cancer or a disease that requires expensive medication to treat/mitigate, MS for example, you would be toast financially (or temporally).

It seems like with the co-pays and what not the US system really discourages people from visiting a doctor when they first get symptoms and ultimately causes more harm.

I live in Canada and think, despite flaws that can be quite significant and were confidently skipped over in sicko, a socialized system just makes more sense.

The sicko documentary was interesting but unfortunately quite biased on the quality of the Canadian system so I hold little doubt it was equally skewed on the other countries.

Also, I don't believe US citizens are allowed to travel to cuba thanks to the embargo, More is in legal woes over that now, so even if it is good service it isn't the most viable of options.

Originally Posted by JMS

Interesting point about health insurance. I don't have insurance for me or my family
I don't believe in health insurance. quite honestly the only thing that health insurance does is make doctors bills too high for the average Joe to afford which only forces him to buy health insurance which he also can't afford! its one big scam as far as I am concerned!
By the way, I am not a rich man but the doctors will still see me and my family and I make payments where I can't afford to pay up front. It's still cheaper than insurance and if there was no insurance I guarantee the cost of seeing a doctor would be cut in half or more!

In the U.S there are basically three healthcare systems. if your rich you get the rolls royce level of care, the best there is anywhere. If you are lucky enough to have good insurance you get a decent level of care. If you have no insurance or have poor insurance your S*it out of luck. You'll probably die of some illness before you get good treatment and prevention doesn't even enter into the equation. Thats what happens when rich corporations control the healthcare system. Their responsibility is to their shareholders not the policyholders.

In the U.S if you need to go to a hospital and you have no insurance and aren't deep pockets you wind up in the welfare ward of a county hospital with the poorest of care. There are many examples of people who have lost their life savings and their homes because of one illness from a child or other family member. Most of Moore's movie is very real, believe it.

I believe there were many good points made in Sicko, but there are also some implications that I suspect are unfounded.

The movie plainly stated that the best medical care available anywhere is in the USA... "best" meaning the quality of doctors, availability of equipment, etc. The point of Sicko was that it's not affordable. In fact, healthcare in the USA is outlandishly expensive, IMHO. I thought he defeated the naysayers that criticize the Canadian, French, Cuban, etc. healthcare systems pretty well... basically very good care and free, or nearly so.

Originally Posted by Bruno

...anyone not lucky enough to have a good medicare and dental plan from his or her employer is basically hosed as soon as something bad happens.

How right you are! Unfortunately, every year more and more employers are cutting health/dental/vision insurance benefits to the minimum or not offering them at all... they have no choice since the premiums seem to go up about 30% each year. I think I read somewhere that more than 60% of small businesses offer their employees no insurance at all. Hence, something over 40% of Americans do not have any health insurance at all... most of them simply can't afford it.

It's fine to pay-as-you-go for routine doctor visits, but you're screwed if you have something major happen. I was told by an insurer that the average heart attack now costs about $750K. That would bankrupt most of us... which incidentally is what a friend undergoing credit counseling was told by a lawyer to do... ie, don't buy insurance and declare bankruptcy if a major illness happens.

When I was a child health insurance wasn't commonly available... only major medical (to assist with hospital bills). When I needed to see a doctor I was generally taken by my father after he got home from work (back then doctors typically did morning and afternoon rounds at the hospital and had late morning and evening office hours). We'd sit in the waiting room until our turn came... sometimes as late as 11pm. The cost of the visit varied between $5-10 depending on whether he gave any shots or used bandages, sutures, splints, casts, etc. There was no receptionist, no nurse, no one handling referrals, no one processing insurance claim forms, no one handling pharmacy stuff, etc... there was just the doctor who did everything, including collect the money. (BTW, today that $5-10 dollars adjusted for inflation is worth about $35-40.)

When I see a doctor today he has one each of those people... ie, the doctor and 8 other people helping... and a visit now costs roughly $125 if you're paying cash (ie, no insurance). Why so much? Well, you have to pay all those people who are pushing all the paper that the insurance companies and Medicare requires to insure no one is taking advantage of them. In turn, the insurance companies and Medicare employ hundreds of thousands of people to read and process all that paper work. My point is I wonder if all that paperwork saves what it costs?

A few months ago I injured my eye and it went "cross-eyed". My bill for the exam at the primary care physician's office was $168... all that happened was an exam resulting in a referral to an eye doctor who charged me $308 to listen to the same story I had told the PC and he performed essentially the same "look at my finger and follow it as I move it up/down and side-to-side". Treatment was to wear an eye patch until normal vision returned in 3-12 weeks (mine came back in 2-weeks, btw). That would have been $476 out of pocket, but my health insurance paid $376. If it hadn't resolved itself then the next step was going to be an MRI for something like $7700 out-of-pocket.

I don't go to the doctor often... I had a physical in 1985 and again in 1997. I saw an Orthopedic guy in 2001 when a sprained ankle remained painful for over a year and got a cortisone shot. The insurance costs me $235 a month... clearly I need to go to the doctor more often to get my money's worth