interesting how my post has been completely ignored
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interesting how my post has been completely ignored
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
Why Sir Avery...Me? Skirt? Never...:w
Ok, Iced Tea is in my cup and I'm ready to post...my how large this thread got...
So My Views on God. I'm part of the 90%+ that Believe that there is a supreme Being (Source: SRP poll Aug 2007). I also believe in science and logic, so I'm going to be a bit cheeky here. One of the most interesting facts that an engineer friend of mine told me while he was in college was something that kept with me "although you can prove something, you can't truely disprove anything"
Meaning? Unless you try every possible solution, there might be one that works. The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence. In other words, just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there.
I'm sure that I'll get the chance to post again soon.
Good night gents
I'm not sure why anyone would think that Demason should have to censor himself....the only response to speech you find offensive is more speech...not censorship. This is supposed to be a discussion, a debate. There is no right or wrong and if members approach it from that point of reference (if you do not agree with me you are wrong, you are my enemy, you are a lesser person, etc.), then it can not be a discussion or a debate. The decision as to the validity of your argument depends on your audience and you command of your speech.
"If you can't say what you mean, you can not mean what you say."
Greg
So far it looks like we're all keeping our heads!!
Wirebeard is right! This is a discussion and as long as we are all being civil , anything goes!
I haven't looked at Denmasons links and only glanced at a couple of others. I am well aware that this is asubject matter that you cant throw facts and figures at so I'd prefer to read peoples ideas and not their links!
Oh, Brendon, I also believe that the idea of a Divine intelligence and true science go together hand in hand!
Oh -- I talked to God last night and he wanted me to tell everyone here that you're all full of crap ---but then he said something about everyone beng right also ---so I don't know -- God's a character that way -- He's really the life of the party.
Justin
Greg, thank-you for having the clarity to say what I, too exhasperated with such arguments. could not find the strength to. Your wisdom is reassuring.
Currently 62.5% and falling.Quote:
Originally Posted by custommartini
That's not 'belief'. Greg has explained the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by custommartini
That's almost a logical fallacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by custommartini
X
I'm not touching this one with a barge pole. Oh wait... doh!:gth
(Two weeks absent and you guys start on the God discussion without me? While on vacation in Italy I saw some truly beautiful, amazing, and inspiring duomos, churches and iconography... I may not believe in God but I'm sure glad others do/did. :w )
The concept of god is a logical contradiction, and cannot exist if logic is acurate. To believe in god you must believe logic is not accurate. Hence the saying I am the ALpha and the Omega.
In science the argument you call almost a logical fallacy is a reputable point of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by xman
Just because you cannot (yet) prove something does not mean it is not true.
I recently finished reading 'Fermat's last theorem' and it makes for an interesting read if you are interested in maths. you don't even need a math background to read it.
The book devotes a significant part explaining that you cannot assume something to be true without proof, and also that you cannot assume something to be false if you cannot prove it to be so.
The book then gives a couple of example of things that everybody thought to be false (or very very unlikely) which turned out to be true and the other way around.
I don't believe that the universe is a figment of its own imagination. It is very real.Quote:
Originally Posted by bpatton
As I wrote before, I believe that there has to be a reason or a higher purpose to this universe behind the laws of physics. For want of a better understanding I call that God(s).
That does not mean I have to believe in a(n) interventionist god(s), or even that god(s) care about us at all. I definitely think that there is more life in the universe than only on this mudball we call earth.
And if that is the case, there is no reason we should be the chosen people, for all I know, we could be the cockroaches of the universe.
Lets drop all ideas we have put on God over the years Sir! I want to ask you just one simple question bpatton, Is there or was there a Grand designer of all things? I believe there was and is! that which stands at the foundation of all!Quote:
Originally Posted by bpatton
Now, I would like to say that this is the way I see things, but, as Justin has already pointed out several times, we are just specks in an infinite universe and we are arguing over things that are truly to big and vast for our puny little brains to ever completely comprehend!
Isn't the "Big Bang" scientific proof of God?
Steve
No there is not some designer. I have no proof and no arguement for this, just like you have no proof or valid arguement for your position. Thats just what I am saying. There is no way to know either way.
My point about god is exactly what you said, you have to drop any construct and any way of understanding to actually believe in god. Putting any structure on him/her means a logical contradiction. You have to say, I believe in a higher being and there is no way for me to understand him or anything about him. I'm not interested in beliveing something exists if I cannot comprehend its existence.
In response to Bruno, I very much believe there is other life in the universe. However that life is similar to us, not divine. I'm also dedicated to understanding the way the universe or existence as you might think of it has no purpose. What could be the purpose? There is no way to tell. I'm content to believe that I can do what is in my best inerests, get along in life, and go about my buisness. Life is great and horrible and everything in between.
It is silly to apply human attributes to things that are not human. Applying any human charecteristic to god is limiting him, including having a purpose.
Why? Just because the most basic laws that science rests on were broken? The laws pertaining to the the creation and destructions of matter and energy.Quote:
Originally Posted by zepplin
If i were to believe that there were no divine bieng then I would take Nietches (sp?) "Without God ALL is permissible" as my core belief and then the fun would begin, the senseless genocides of the past, in all races and cultures... would be nothing compared to the chaos that would ensue.
And since folks have already argued against god(s)... let us throw out every rule, law, ethic and taboo that has been based on the teaching od one religion or another and see how quickly the human race ends itself.
If there where no god(s) man would have created one(them). Mainly as control method that helped to form civilization, people are willing to do things for a "higher purpose" that they otherwise would not have done, consider the giving to charity. As people have pointed out there have been atrocities done in the name of god(s), but there has been far more good done in that(their) name(s).
Consider the twentieth century, we saw the rise of atheism, the reduction of spirtuallity and religion and great ills that followed. Consider the two world wars, the rise of totalitarian states, genocide around the world how could they have existed had there not been decline in hte moral fabric that had held us from the abyss?
If one wants to claim that evolution and natural selection are the be all end all rules of the universe then there is no reason for any of us to restrain our natural urges. to aid with natural selection.... please maim, kill, rape and pillage to your heart's content. It will not be long before you will be wanting a few of those old religion based laws.
Of course one need to remember, the human being is not the highest form of life on the planet, he is the lowest. Like it or not the most important importantlife form on the planet is the most prevelant, to whit, BACTERIA. We are all simply tools that the bacteria which lives in us uses to propagate it's species and provide it with shelter and sustanance. Without bacteria we would be dead, without us many types of bacteria would die. We look for the outer god(s) but never consider the inner one, which a few hundred years ago science failed to believe in the existance of bacteria.
I for one fail to believe that this entire plane of existance has no purpose. but now to hedge my bet (call this agnostic)... i guess it is time to go on a spree... where did i leave that poleax and sword?
i believe in some or this
I notice many of us talking of laws and rules governing the ways of the universe and everything within that universe! my question remains the same, by what force are these laws and rules set in motion? who or what established these principles? Do we not owe this force our very existence?
there doesn't have to be a beggining. Everything that is, has always been and will always be. It just changes form.
to return to my prior argument, there has still not been any evidence put forth that supports the position that life, any life, comes from non-life. If anyone is asserting this position, then they are doing so on blind faith, with no evidence. If there is any evidence supporting this position, then show it to me.
I am not talking about evolution.
X, from a scientific standpoint, your position is just and untenable as mine. There are only scientific theories as to the beginning of life. Nothing can be proved. When looking around at the world, and all of its intricacies, we could be looking at millions of years of evolution, as set up by God, and developing as God intended. Or we could be looking a miracle of chance, the 1 to the 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000 power probability that all of this occurred without some divine intervention.
You demand scientific proof that God exists and created all of this. I ask you for scientific proof that God does not exist, and that this universe, galaxy, planet, just simply happened. What scientific proof is there that life simply happened by chance.
As to Bpatton's assertions:
You assert that what exists now, has always existed, and will always exist, because there is nothing but existence. that is just as simple an answer to this question as me saying it was created. There is no response to your assertion, because it is a conclusory statement. You assert there is no begining and no end, everthing simply exists. I say there was a begining, there will be an end, and God created this existence.
You assert that life began in some primordial soup, by chance. You make this assertion based on blind faith, with no scientific proof. Why should I believe this assertion any more than the assertion that life was created by a divine being?
If we have no higher purpose, then why is life held so sacred? Why is it wrong to kill someone? they have no purpose here on earth, they are simply a thing, such as a tree, deer, or dog. So why is human life sacred?
I have danced around it, but now I will say it:
Most people try to conform God into being what they want, rather than submitting themselves to the overridding power and authority of God and conforming themselves to his will. We live in a very hedonistic society, which only values what is "good" for themselves. "Good" being in qotation for a purpose.
When a person is put in the ground at the end of his life, does he want his toumbstone to read" "here lies Mr. Smith, he was a lover of money, filanderer of women, user of drugs, and only looked out for himself. May he rest in peace."? NO
when any rational person is burried at the end of his life, he wants to be remembered as a person who lived up to the values esposed in the Bible, even if he does not believe in Jesus and the overriding power of God the Father. With this inate desire to be this type of person, why do so many people throw mud at the Bible, and all that it stands for. Almost all people want to be remembered as a person which held to the values set forth in this "book" so why dispariage it?
okay, my post above may be dated since I had to run to a meeting, and was delayed in posting. If the topics have been covered, I apologize for rehashing ideas already espoused.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpatton
sounds like God or god to me --- minus the beard and lightning bolts and humanoid form
I think for most people God is a thing without beginning or end or creator
O.K. so I won't believe in the traditional notion of God because I refuse to believe in a thing that has always been and always will be ---but I'll believe in "everything that is, has always been and will always be" --- yep sounds like God to me
Of course the concept that the universe is god is nothing new --- I guess we'll just take out the word God.
Justin
Brief diversion:
Justin, how is the fly fishing?
diversion over.
Godly ;) --haven't had much time of late but Zeus willing maybe soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
Justin
I don't throw mud at the bible. I think the book has real value. I just think it is not THE word of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
The contents of the NT were determined by majority vote between somewhere along the 3d and 4th century, and a lot was axed in favor of the worldview of the voters. Which is probably why women have no significant role in the bible, other than as support people.
Even the Church itself says the bible was compiled via a certain process, so I don't think people have to be ofended by that fact. The bible is a human creation, as is the Koran, Torah, book of Wicca, ...
As such, I don't believe that it has divine authority.
Likewise, the religious institution known as catholic church (which I use as an example because I am a non practising catholic) is made by men with all their human failings. History shows that those men committed some grave atrocities in the name of God. So the religious institutions do not carry divine autority either imo.
The bible itself as we know it contains important values, but so does the koran and the torah, and all carry the mark who made them, and I think it is impossible to say that 1 would be absolute truth while the other is not.
go my brother and commune with nature. be one with the fish. catch them and eat them. You have more important things to do than discuss God, and all of his intricacies.
"As to Bpatton's assertions:
You assert that what exists now, has always existed, and will always exist, because there is nothing but existence. that is just as simple an answer to this question as me saying it was created. There is no response to your assertion, because it is a conclusory statement. You assert there is no begining and no end, everthing simply exists. I say there was a begining, there will be an end, and God created this existence.
You assert that life began in some primordial soup, by chance. You make this assertion based on blind faith, with no scientific proof. Why should I believe this assertion any more than the assertion that life was created by a divine being?
If we have no higher purpose, then why is life held so sacred? Why is it wrong to kill someone? they have no purpose here on earth, they are simply a thing, such as a tree, deer, or dog. So why is human life sacred?"
I'm glad you finally grasp exactly what I am saying. There is no proof of gods existence and cannot be. There is also no proof that the way science believes things happen is correct. My point is that this discussion is useless. It has been repeatedly asked what the atheists answers are to those questions, I just gave them. The whole thing is, it's not blind faith. I can actually read and understand the material that theorizes things happened as science says. I can UNDERSTAND their reasons. I don't have to go on BLIND FAITH. There are some things that are not understood. That just means there is more room for science to work. I don't think science can ever answer this question with finality. As I stated in my very long post which most peopel have ignored, THERE IS NO PERFECT ANSWER, nothing can be proved either way. My impression is the side with better reasoning is the side that stands with reason behind it, to the side of it, and in front of it. That would be Science, because it encourages you to think and doesn't require you to ignore your reason.
Why is life held so sacred? Come on, are you serous? I deny that there is anything "sacred" in the desire. The point of living is living, and continueing the species. Thats all there is. How about this, if there is an "afterlife" why is everyone afraid of dying? It wouldn't matter, unless you are going to hell. But then my guess is that even the most devoute person is afraid of death, of their existence ending. THis might be the reason that people as you say have an overwhelming desire to be remembered as a godly man. They don't want their existence to end. They hope god will be real, that he thinks they are godly, and will take their soul for heaven after death. Fear is a strong motivator.
I also completly deny that everyone has some innate desire to be remembered as someone that lived according to the bible. Thats 100% untrue. I really don't think someone who has never been exposed to it could have that desire. Also, there are plenty of people in our society that don't want that to happen. How about muslims, jews, sihks, hindu, and the many many other religons that are in the world. In our culture, because of the pervasiveness of the christian religon, many people view the values in the bible as the ultimate values. However, THAT IS NOT EVERYONE. I think many of the things espoused in the bible are bull (not slinging any mud, just stating my opinion), some others are very admirable. However, the main problem (which many will claim to be the main strenght) of the bible is that it cannot be nailed to one position. It is too easy to quote contradictory passages out of most versions of the bible. Take the debate over homosexuality, there are passages for and against homo sexuality. Everyone can find somthing to justify anything that they want to do, thats a problem in my eyes.
Again, the world would not stop spinning if religon wasn't around. Religon may be your reason for not killing every person you know, but it is by no means mine. I want to get along in society, have a family, and give them the best life I can. To do this there is the thing called the golden rule by some: treat others as you want to be treated. This would mean that I don't kill people because I don't want to be killed. I encourage progress and protection of the species, because I want others to do the same. I give to the needy because if I was needy I would want someone to help me out. Religon is not the rock on which society is founded, need created cooperation and thus society.
As for the god is the universe arguement, ummmm, ok. Just try not to call it GOD. God is associated with certain assumptions rising out of the traditional religions. You are much closer to the Wicca than anything to do with christianity. If you want to call existence god, enjoy. Its just avoiding the issue by saying I believe in existence and that's god. Well I believe in existence so I guess we are in the same place, but I don't know why you want to call it god.
I have already posted most of this stuff. I mean no offense, so please take none. I am not offended, I enjoy these conversations and have spent alot of time debating the subject.
I'm with bpatton. Another reason people don't go around killing each other, in general, is they don't want to be punished for it. I'm sure many more would if they thought there would be some advantage to be gained from doing it and they would get away with it.
As to the creating life in a lab, well believers just move the goalposts or say that it's proof of a god. Haven't basic proteins and maybe rna already been created?
Why? -- I wouldn't be the first to do so-- and for me God has nothing to do with the assumptions of humans (as much is possible)---and I'm not avoiding the issue --- for thousands of years people have been dealing with the idea of God --- and one of the main problems is trying to wrap the old brain around something that has always existed and for ever will --- so you've solved that problem and labeled it existence or the universe --- whatever blows your skirt up ---- or do you have to assign benevolence , and anthropomorphic qualities to it for it to be God?Quote:
Originally Posted by bpatton
Again if any of us are so sure that we have God, the universe, etc figured out for sure ---absolutely ---leaving no room for error --- well that 's quite Godly --- start a church.
Justin
I would have to disagree that the 20th century was any more violet, incident-wise, than any other...sadly, it seems technology made the killing for efficient. The Allies and the Axis both claimed God was on their side, each putting forth the appropriate text to support their views. The Allies moved into Europe and Asia under the moniker of "The Great Crusade" (the insignia for the US Army in Europe is still a crusader's sword), while the Nazis hearkened back to the Teutonic knights as inspiration for the uniforms of the SS and even further back into Germanic pagan tradition for support of their Aryan views. The Japanese military relied heavily on the Buddhist/Shinto belief system supporting bushido, their warrior's code. Again, I feel it is not the presence or absence of religion itself, but what each individual does with the socio-cultural norms that surround them, many of which are espoused in the world's religions. All the world's religions have been saturated with cultural influences which have nothing to do with the basis/origin of the faith itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by syslight
We started here with a discussion of God's existence...here is a harder question:
Why is God?
:hmmm:
Greg
Gents I personally think the moderator should lock this thread up. To continue will serve no further purpose. To discuss G-d is in fact a very personal thing and a matter of ones faith and its something you either believe in or don't. I don't see the purpose of continuing this. The more this is drawn out and the more we refer to outside references the more this whole thing smacks of prosletizing to me and personally I would find that extremely offensive. Why not just keep our personal beliefs to ourselves and maybe those dearest to us eh?
Remember this is a shaving forum not a religion forum or philosophy forum and even though its in the off topic area I think there should be boundries and I think we are about to cross them.
Torque it down til it strips then back it off half a turn. If the thread offends anyone they can simply not read it.
I'm learning a lot. Just try to be civil with each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaegerhund
You said earlier that you think god is the entirety of existence, well, then you have nailed it down haven't you?
My point is just that saying god is existence is like saying a duck is a hippopotamus. God is traditionally associated with certain things (just like a duck has a beak), you can't get away from them and use the same term. If you really want to call god existence, what are you going to do with the word existence. It just doesn't make much sense to do. That being said, enjoy, its just going to confuse people.
Any my point was that you got away from the debate, god then simply becomes existence. Existence obviously exists, I think therefore I am. Therefore, your god clearly exists.
As a side note, the funny thing about anything we think about is that it exists, even if it is just an electrical impulse in our brain. So when you contemplate god, god actually exists in some way. Fun times deciding what we know....Epistemology.
I haven't told you anything I believe actually --- just taking part in the discussion --just probing --- just questioning ---- just wondering --- just being human ---just improvising ----and if anything I've supported your side in the past and may in the future --- I have nothing nailed down -- wish I could but I have enough problems spelling correctly and using correct gramar --- oops -- grammar ---but you make a good point and I appreciate it but I'm just not sure --- I'll let you know when I figure it all out ---Quote:
Originally Posted by bpatton
Justin
ok, just putting in my 2 Cents. Thought you were putting forth your beliefs. My mistake.
Bah! Grammar---It's just a convention.
No, I'm not that brave ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by bpatton
Justin
Or maybe your just not as arrogant as some of us old bastards Justin!:w;):DQuote:
Originally Posted by jaegerhund
The Dark ages, the crusades, the witch trials, the inquisition,... were all in large part to caused by religion. Was it really that much better when the churches ruled supreme and influenced every part of normal life?Quote:
Originally Posted by syslight
You have reached true enlightenment when you realize that EVERYTHING is an illusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by bpatton
Yep, nothin but mammals, well, some of us are cannibals.Quote:
Originally Posted by bpatton
Life is life.
What did you eat today?
Toast?
Wheat murderer !!!
Eggs?
Chicken murderer !!!
Life is life.
What is the difference if it's human?
Glad someone else brought that up. I always get funny looks when I point this out.
I believe you are being unrealistic about those odds there chief.Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
Lets see you type a whole universe of zeros.
Of course in the time it took you (infinity?) I would wager that you might have second thoughts about your position.
I'll start for you.
10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000
Are we there yet??
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000
How bout now?
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Don't make me stop this universe !!!!!
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Pretty sure I'm short a few million zeros.
I still like those odds better than some old man in the sky with a beard and a white robe that has a list of ten things we can't do or he will burn us with a magnifying glass.
And how did you come up with the belief that there is only one "Grand Prize" to be won anyway?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
Jaeger-dude and Spending-Large,Quote:
Originally Posted by jaegerhund
You know, there is a group of scientist that subscribe to the belief that as soon as man discovers the true nature of the universe, it will immediately and instantaneously morph into something even more bizarre and inexplicable.....
....there is another cadre' of scientists that believe that this has, in fact, already occurred.
After reading the latest news about Idaho's illustrious lead senator and his arrest in a restroom in the Minneapolis airport, I'm inclined to fall in solidly with the latter group.
(...oh, sure! Mix politics & sex in the religion discussion! Just how many forum taboos can we break in one thread???....)
-whatever
-Lou
Alright. Let me just say this is giving me a right royal headache and we've completely missed the important points and are labouring over terms.
They are the natural order, naturally established and we are bound to it. That is all we can know about the bigger picture. We should focus on the finer points which govern our lives and ignore the god debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
This never happens. Theories are only modified as new information becomes available. It is scientific to doubt theory. It is, however, heresy to doubt the most popular god(s).Quote:
Originally Posted by syslight
Since there are no gods, what stops you? I'M SERIOUS! This is the real question.Quote:
Originally Posted by syslight
This is what we are observing.Quote:
Originally Posted by syslight
Just because you cannot find your moral centre without your god doesn't mean that there isn't one to be found. I'm doing very well. Join me. The water's fine. I know you won't. I know you can't, but the invitation stands.Quote:
Originally Posted by syslight
Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
We do so based on the evidence embedded in eons of sand, so technically we are talking about evolution.
I ask for none. I need none.Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
You are asking for an argument to ignorance. That is logical fallacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
Proof? Dunno, but the evidence is quite literally everywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
*sigh* ... no ... :(Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
It is based on eons of evidence locked in the sands of time and found repeatedly to support the theory again and again over many years of observation.
RIGHT! YES! THIS IS OUR CONCERN!! :yQuote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
You believe that the divine words of gods provide people with these mores and I fail to. I believe that we made them up on our own and you fail to. But THAT DOESN'T MATTER!!! The world over, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, etc .. all find a need for moral guidance. However it arose, our morality has a purpose for us? What is it and how best can we serve that need?
;)Quote:
Originally Posted by jaegerhund
JMS,
Do you see why I say you should separate 'compassion' from 'god'? People get stuck on the non-sequitur and find it immensely difficult to make any progress.
That's it for me. I'm done with this thread. Keep digging a pointless hole in your heads if you like, but I'm going on to where I can do some good.
X
The Drake Equation.Quote:
Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr
X
I do not believe religion caused people to do these things. I believe instead that in large part religion was a handy excuse for bloody, murderous men to indulge their darker sides! Men like this will find any excuse! If it hadn't of been for religion they would have said the creatures of the deep commanded them or some such rubbish! Hell, they may have yelled in the name of science as they eviscerated you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
Men like these can find justification for their actions anywhere! Which begs the question as to why, if there is no Supreme Being, that anyone would feel the need to justify anything they do? Who are they trying to convince anyways and for what purpose?