Thread: Local news on Covid 19

Originally Posted by alex1921

I did it to protect myself.

You should have

In your work you are most certainly "At Risk" if I did what you do I would be first in line

For the rest of the group,,,

Did anyone here get the Antibody test BEFORE getting the vaccine ???

Yes. Unrelated matter of going to er with torn miniscus. they checked and no antibodies. Got.the shot several weeks later.

Originally Posted by alex1921

Well I was referring to the mRNA vaccines. As far as I am aware the serious side effects they are describing are seen in the Astra and J&J vaccines which are based on a viral vector.

Here is an article about mRNA vaccines:
https://www.medpagetoday.com/infecti.../covid19/89998

Here is the NEJM one that was submitted by Pfizer:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2034577

When people say rushed, how long of testing would be required so it wouldn't feel rushed? How many patients? What if Astra said, yeah in rare cases we see clots. Would you have said it wasn't rushed?

Let's say they gave this warning prior to vaccinating people, see below, even though no medication is ever tested on 20 mil people.
"Among more than 20 million people who have been vaccinated with the AstraZeneca vaccine in the UK so far, 79 cases of rare blood clots with low platelets have been reported, as well as 19 deaths, said the UK’s Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency. This equates to around one case per 250 000 people vaccinated—0.0004%—and one death in a million." BMJ 2021; 373 doi: https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.n931 (Published 08 April 2021)

Just for comparison, when you get hospitalized you most likely will be placed on some sort of heparin injections to prevent clots. Patients are immobile, have infections, basically increased risk of DVT and PE. Some patients will get HIT which is a similar immune mediated low platelets and clots situation like the AZ and J&J vaccines are causing.
"HIT was diagnosed in 0.065% of inpatients, or 1/1500 hospital admissions."

1 in 1500 admissions to get HIT vs 1 in 250,000 to get something similar from a vaccine. We still use heparin.

Any medication you get, at home or at the hospital, procedures you name it. Everything has potential side effects.
If anyone feels that the 1 in a million risk of dying from the AZ vaccine is too much, then go with the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines or dont get vaccinated at all.

I don't disagree with anything you said.
I respect your obviously greater knowledge regarding this stuff, I wasn't trying to be argumentative and do take your advice and posts seriously.

I was simply saying that in my opinion, the vaccines were not fully tested.

I do understand the difficulties and challenges of inventing a vaccine that we need right now and wasn't trying to suggest that the vaccines shouldn't be available for several years, just trying to make a point.

As far as "when people say rushed, how long of testing would be required so it wouldn't feel rushed? How many patients? What if Astra said, yeah in rare cases we see clots. Would you have said it wasn't rushed? ".

Your previous venerable leader, when the US lead the world for Covid cases and deaths famously said on TV about the US stats, it is what it is.

Stating that a vaccine could cause a particular side effect has nothing to do with whether it was rushed or not but would let us choose our vaccine based on real information, like I said, several Provinces have stopped giving AZ as the first shot. That's not individuals not wanting it but the provincial chief medical officers advice to their various premiers.

I didn't know that Heparin could cause blood clots, I actually thought it was supposed to prevent them. I was bed bound in Hospital for a month not so long ago and I got it daily, I didn't think I had much choice, they just came and did it but I was pretty uninterested on morphine so i just let them do what they wanted as long as it didn't hurt.

Finally, I do agree that a person should be allowed to choose their vaccine but I also think that everyone should get vaccinated.

Here's a question that has been bugging me.

If you've already had Covid/virus, and are still alive, why would you need a vaccine.....

Did your body not just build an immunity to it.!?

Originally Posted by outback

Here's a question that has been bugging me.

If you've already had Covid/virus, and are still alive, why would you need a vaccine.....

Did your body not just build an immunity to it.!?

For what it's worth.

https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-upd...i-need-vaccine

Bob

Originally Posted by STF

I don't disagree with anything you said.
I respect your obviously greater knowledge regarding this stuff, I wasn't trying to be argumentative and do take your advice and posts seriously.

I was simply saying that in my opinion, the vaccines were not fully tested.

I do understand the difficulties and challenges of inventing a vaccine that we need right now and wasn't trying to suggest that the vaccines shouldn't be available for several years, just trying to make a point.

As far as "when people say rushed, how long of testing would be required so it wouldn't feel rushed? How many patients? What if Astra said, yeah in rare cases we see clots. Would you have said it wasn't rushed? ".

Your previous venerable leader, when the US lead the world for Covid cases and deaths famously said on TV about the US stats, it is what it is.

Stating that a vaccine could cause a particular side effect has nothing to do with whether it was rushed or not but would let us choose our vaccine based on real information, like I said, several Provinces have stopped giving AZ as the first shot. That's not individuals not wanting it but the provincial chief medical officers advice to their various premiers.

I didn't know that Heparin could cause blood clots, I actually thought it was supposed to prevent them. I was bed bound in Hospital for a month not so long ago and I got it daily, I didn't think I had much choice, they just came and did it but I was pretty uninterested on morphine so i just let them do what they wanted as long as it didn't hurt.

Finally, I do agree that a person should be allowed to choose their vaccine but I also think that everyone should get vaccinated.

I dont see your posts as argumentative. Actually having a discussion is great. Just trying to share some things I have learned.
Honestly I had no idea about mRNA vaccines until COVID showed up, then I started reading about it.

Yeah heparin induced clots is a weird thing. Once you get it you get labelled allergic to heparin and shouldn't use it again.

Originally Posted by outback

Here's a question that has been bugging me.

If you've already had Covid/virus, and are still alive, why would you need a vaccine.....

Did your body not just build an immunity to it.!?

My take on it, and I dont claim expertise. They have no idea so they are taking the safe route.
Some people wont get reinfected but some will. I have seen patients have low symptom covid in June come back in December really sick. Depends how good your immune system is, how much you got exposed, how much antibodies you made. For example the HepB vaccine, you get 3 doses and then they check you and some people need a 4th dose.

With these mRNA vaccines you really make a ton of antibodies, a friend got tested post second dose and the number was through the roof. Much higher than what he had post beating COVID in August. He was convalescent plasma donor after his covid.
There is a study that said if you had COVID maybe just one dose is enough and you are good.

So when Glen asked asked if people get tested for antibodies before vaccine, we asked an ID doc and his answer was. We are not sure what the number cutoff is that would still offer protection. Basically they dont know.

Originally Posted by STF

I don't disagree with anything you said.
I respect your obviously greater knowledge regarding this stuff, I wasn't trying to be argumentative and do take your advice and posts seriously.

I was simply saying that in my opinion, the vaccines were not fully tested.

I do understand the difficulties and challenges of inventing a vaccine that we need right now and wasn't trying to suggest that the vaccines shouldn't be available for several years, just trying to make a point.

As far as "when people say rushed, how long of testing would be required so it wouldn't feel rushed? How many patients? What if Astra said, yeah in rare cases we see clots. Would you have said it wasn't rushed? ".

Your previous venerable leader, when the US lead the world for Covid cases and deaths famously said on TV about the US stats, it is what it is.

Stating that a vaccine could cause a particular side effect has nothing to do with whether it was rushed or not but would let us choose our vaccine based on real information, like I said, several Provinces have stopped giving AZ as the first shot. That's not individuals not wanting it but the provincial chief medical officers advice to their various premiers.

I didn't know that Heparin could cause blood clots, I actually thought it was supposed to prevent them. I was bed bound in Hospital for a month not so long ago and I got it daily, I didn't think I had much choice, they just came and did it but I was pretty uninterested on morphine so i just let them do what they wanted as long as it didn't hurt.

Finally, I do agree that a person should be allowed to choose their vaccine but I also think that everyone should get vaccinated.

I am not sure if I have posted it, but the "rush" was explained to me was like expedited shipping. You pay extra to get your order processed and shipped overnight, but you still expect them to handle the shipping with the same care as they do before. Throwing the money at them allowed them to work extra shifts to finish the research, ramp up production facilities without waiting to procure funding, etc. So, basically, the paid extra so it would not be held up by financial issues.

As for the length of testing, my understanding from doctors is that generally vaccines are not tested long term because most of the technology is well known and the side effects are pretty immediate because you don't have prolonged exposure, it just goes in and does its thing and leaves. So, you don't get long lasting effects. Now, I have no idea how the new technology of the mRNA fits into that. Nor do I know what sort of testing has been done during the the development of the delivery system. Obviously all the specifics with COVID were developed in the last 18 months.

As for the backache vaccine, the reason you wont get an expedited vaccine process on that is because people are not dying from a backache. Backaches are not ruining parts of the economy. The cost to develop a vaccine for the common cold has never been justifiable for the relatively mild discomfort most people get from them.

One thing that intrigues me about the mRNA vaccines is whether now that the delivery and encoding has been figured out, if vaccines will be developed faster and cheaper. And, if now the cost of a vaccine for the common cold will be justifiable. But, that is just me sitting here thinking that it would be easier to encode the parts of the virus you need as opposed to isolating and growing certain parts of an actual virus. I have never seen anything that discusses that.

My understanding is the common cold is actually caused by a relatively large number of related but separate viruses. They would have to isolate and deal with each one by one.

With any emergency approval ultimately you have to ask yourself, how many will die or suffer seriously while the normal testing is proceeding vs how many will die or suffer seriously with the natural progression of the pandemic.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

My understanding is the common cold is actually caused by a relatively large number of related but separate viruses. They would have to isolate and deal with each one by one.

With any emergency approval ultimately you have to ask yourself, how many will die or suffer seriously while the normal testing is proceeding vs how many will die or suffer seriously with the natural progression of the pandemic.

You are getting way outside my knowledge of the subject. I have no doubt the the common cold is multiple viruses, just like the flu, which plays a part in the expense. But, I have no idea of the real world impacts on the potential of mRNA.

As for the emergency authorization, you could be correct. But, in my world of regulations I generally present a nice easy to follow data package to get approved. If I need it quick, I may sit down with the regulator and say "ok, here is all the data to show it is safe, can you approve it while I get the final data package put together". So, there is actually no affect on safety, more of a paperwork thing. Big ol' caveat for my world, though. I have no idea what it means in the medical world.