McCain frightens me!!!

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I'd never want my country invaded, but I wouldn't forcibly or violently oppose the toppling of my murderous, unpredictable, war-bent dictator.

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Except if said force is suddenly staying, installing a puppet government, building bases, tapping oil and showing no intention to leave.
It's almost like the US wants to turn Iraq in a colony.

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I guess my point is that if my nation went to crap over a murderous unpredictable warbent dictator who took power thirty years previously and never allowed free elections, I would not fight against someone who comes to remove him.

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Don't forget that for most of that time the US really liked having him there, he was our stronghold against communism in the middle east. That is, after all why we put him in power.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Except if said force is suddenly staying, installing a puppet government, building bases, tapping oil and showing no intention to leave.
It's almost like the US wants to turn Iraq in a colony.

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In general yes of course, but as far as I've heard as reporting goes, the same Iraqi mindset that was fighting against the US to begin with is the same mindset that is fighting against the US now. I see it as an indication that there is an element in Iraq that feeds off of killing. That element is everywhere - I'm not convinced that otherwise peacable Iraqi citizens have been driven to violence en masse in order to get US soldiers out of their country. Perhaps some - I've never been though so I look forward to standing corrected or confirmed by someone who has

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Originally Posted by Nickelking

Don't forget that for most of that time the US really liked having him there, he was our stronghold against communism in the middle east. That is, after all why we put him in power.

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True - but rather than justifying what the US is doing, I'm only pointing out what I think I would do if I was on the other side. Of course I'm not on the other side and I can't say with perfect confidence how I would react to the US being there. If that were to happen in the US though, I wouldn't be trying to kill the madman's deposers - and maybe I'm a minorty to think that way :shrug:

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

True - but rather than justifying what the US is doing, I'm only pointing out what I think I would do if I was on the other side. Of course I'm not on the other side and I can't say with perfect confidence how I would react to the US being there. If that were to happen in the US though, I wouldn't be trying to kill the madman's deposers - and maybe I'm a minorty to think that way :shrug:

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The problem is that you really can't speak of "Iraqis". There are many factions vying with each other for power. Then you have other outside players like Al Qaida and Iran (and others probably). Oh, and we didn't create the civil war, its been going on there for generations. Iron handed rule just kept it in check.

I would be curious to hear how some of our members who have been there would describe the situation with respect to the views of "Iraqis".

My biggest problem is that the administration seems to have chosen to believe that what they wanted to be reality was and would continue to be reality. They didn't look at the situation with any wisdom or objective realism. This is what happens with ideologues. W should have taken some lessons from his father before embarking on this poorly conceived adventure.

Jordan

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Originally Posted by jnich67

My biggest problem is that the administration seems to have chosen to believe that what they wanted to be reality was and would continue to be reality. They didn't look at the situation with any wisdom or objective realism. This is what happens with ideologues. W should have taken some lessons from his father before embarking on this poorly conceived adventure.
Jordan

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The Senate findings on what the Admin knew vs what the Admin said is expected to come out next week. It should be interesting.

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Originally Posted by jnich67

Actually, we tried both of those techniques...:w

Jordan

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Then it should have been tried again.";"

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Originally Posted by Nickelking

The refusal to negotiate with foreign leaders (sorry, that should have been hostile foreign leaders) was more implied than directly stated as opposition towards Barack Obama's willingness to negotiate with countries like iran and north korea. But then he's never stated at what point he feels negotiation is a bad thing. Petraeus even said recently that we should try and negotiate with Iran link. Not sure if it's related or not, but he's even claimed that Regan refused to negotiate with Iran. He is however open to negotiating with other countries about environmental issues according to his latest environmental speech. But the fact that he's agains talking to forces like Iran when there's no evidence of them being hostile towards us is a disturbing thought.

as for the G8 comments, they were first uttered in a speech in Los Angeles link the comments can be found on page 3 of that article.

Edit and for more on his proposed League of democracies (which I erronously called a league of democratic nations) you can find more info here.

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WoW where did that come from? The republican guard which is under the control of religious fanatics has openly opposed us, the religious leaders of this country call us the great devil, and have called for our destruction, the president of this country openly calls for the destruction of Israel, calling them a rotting corpse... what do you mean there is no evidence of hostility?

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Except if said force is suddenly staying, installing a puppet government, building bases, tapping oil and showing no intention to leave.
It's almost like the US wants to turn Iraq in a colony.

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How can you say we aren't trying to leave? We just want to leave something stable behind so that this region doesn't explode in our faces again in another decade or two.
The so called puppet government is being elected by the people of Iraq, and they are learning to deal with their own problems.
The US government is shoveling money into Iraq, if we were tapping oil, gas prices wouldn't be at record highs in the US right now.
We don't want Iraq and their problems, we want to leave a stable democracy in that region who will hopefully one day be an ally.

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Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

WoW where did that come from? The republican guard which is under the control of religious fanatics has openly opposed us, the religious leaders of this country call us the great devil, and have called for our destruction, the president of this country openly calls for the destruction of Israel, calling them a rotting corpse... what do you mean there is no evidence of hostility?

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I assume that the open opposition of the Revolutionary Guards refers to the claim that they're training operatives in Iraq (a silly claim to even entertain considering that it would mean supporting a Shia government) that claim has been denied by Iraqi government officials and our government has yet to provide any proof for it (though a few weeks ago they called off a press conference to display Iranian made weapons when none could be found.)

Yes, Khamenei has said some harsh things about the US, but we've said some pretty harsh things about Iran. he's made it clear for quite some time that he'd really prefer there to be no relationship with the United States, but we like to butt in.

As for Amadinajad, who holds very litle power in that country, I thought it was alreadly widly proven and reported that those "off the map" quotes that were so highly publicized were abhorrant translations. Many outspoken anti-Iranian scholars of Persian came out to defend him against the comments that were attributed to him.

At least this as far as I have seen.

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Originally Posted by Nickelking

As for Amadinajad, who holds very litle power in that country, I thought it was alreadly widly proven and reported that those "off the map" quotes that were so highly publicized were abhorrant translations. Many outspoken anti-Iranian scholars of Persian came out to defend him against the comments that were attributed to him.

At least this as far as I have seen.

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I sure hope you're right. Other translations I have read (of that particular quote) quoted him thus: "The current Zionist regime must vanish from the pages of time." I don't trust the leadership of Iran at all - can someone cite an example of a reason anyone should? (I'm not talking about the US or Europe or anyone else, simply the integrity or lack of it among the current Iranian leadership)