Thread: The laws of men

I've been thinking about this for some time, and thought I'd share it.
I don't know the answers either...

1) Is it morally wrong to disobey the laws of men?
The laws of men change all the time. This makes that what once was lawful may now be considered unlawful, and vice versa.
For example, it used to be perfectly fine to beat and rape your wife, while that is now illegal (at least in most western countries.)

If we can assume that there are unchanging ideals or right and wrong, then this means that every man has to make out for himself which laws he obeys, and which not, so breaking the law is not automatically a-moral.

If there are NO unchanging ideals of right and wrong (or in another way: if right and wrong are dicated by law), then why the hell would we care about them. Do what you want without regard for right and wrong, OR simply changes the laws to allow what you want, and then do it without regard for those who you are doing it unto.

2) Does disobediance have an affect on your afterlife?
With the previous issue in mind, does adherence to the laws of men influence your religious 'scoreboard' for the afterlife / reincarnation / karma ...?

For example take paying taxes. Everyone is well aware that tax laws are a maze, ambiguous as hell, and designed by lawyers for lawyers.

If you fill in your tax form with what you judge is just, as opposed to what the spaggethi of rules and regulations dictates, does that make you a thief? According to the law: yes. Morally speaking it depends. If the laws were designed to rip you off, then denying them is morally right.

And vice versa: if a tax or toll is just, and you go hunting for loopholes to avoid paying it, does that make you a thief? According to the laws: no, but according to the standard of right and wrong: Yes'

3) If morals are dictated by religion, then which is the right one?
If the laws of morality take precedence over the laws of men, and morals are prescribed by religion, then which religion is the right one?

Virtually all of the major religions are mutually exclusive, and have vastly different definitions of what is right and wrong, and have very different penalties.

following the tenets of one belief automatically means you break the laws of a lot of other religions, no matter what you believe in. So how do you know that you are believing in the right one?

Originally Posted by Bruno

I've been thinking about this for some time, and thought I'd share it.
I don't know the answers either...

1) Is it morally wrong to disobey the laws of men?
The laws of men change all the time. This makes that what once was lawful may now be considered unlawful, and vice versa.
For example, it used to be perfectly fine to beat and rape your wife, while that is now illegal (at least in most western countries.)

If we can assume that there are unchanging ideals or right and wrong, then this means that every man has to make out for himself which laws he obeys, and which not, so breaking the law is not automatically a-moral.

If there are NO unchanging ideals of right and wrong (or in another way: if right and wrong are dicated by law), then why the hell would we care about them. Do what you want without regard for right and wrong, OR simply changes the laws to allow what you want, and then do it without regard for those who you are doing it unto.

2) Does disobediance have an affect on your afterlife?
With the previous issue in mind, does adherence to the laws of men influence your religious 'scoreboard' for the afterlife / reincarnation / karma ...?

For example take paying taxes. Everyone is well aware that tax laws are a maze, ambiguous as hell, and designed by lawyers for lawyers.

If you fill in your tax form with what you judge is just, as opposed to what the spaggethi of rules and regulations dictates, does that make you a thief? According to the law: yes. Morally speaking it depends. If the laws were designed to rip you off, then denying them is morally right.

And vice versa: if a tax or toll is just, and you go hunting for loopholes to avoid paying it, does that make you a thief? According to the laws: no, but according to the standard of right and wrong: Yes'

3) If morals are dictated by religion, then which is the right one?
If the laws of morality take precedence over the laws of men, and morals are prescribed by religion, then which religion is the right one?

Virtually all of the major religions are mutually exclusive, and have vastly different definitions of what is right and wrong, and have very different penalties.

following the tenets of one belief automatically means you break the laws of a lot of other religions, no matter what you believe in. So how do you know that you are believing in the right one?

Nice can of worms you've got there Bruno. You sure you wanted to open that one?

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

Nice can of worms you've got there Bruno. You sure you wanted to open that one?

I have thought about it for some time. I just got a final nudge today.
As I said, I don't know the answers either so I am not making any judgements.

Ok, I'll give it a go. Remember though that I'm answering from a Mormon perspective. Not trying to start a flame war. Also I realise that others can disagree. This is their right.

Originally Posted by Bruno

1) Is it morally wrong to disobey the laws of men? That depends on what those laws are based on.

If they are based on God's laws or if you have somehow agreed to lvie these laws...then yes. If it's just some bugger who decided that it seemed like a good idea at the time....screw him. Although I do expect to be punished when caught.

Offcourse there are laws that have consequenses even if God didn't give them to us. If you screw over the taxman he's going to screw you over.


2) Does disobediance have an affect on your afterlife?
YES. for me. Once again depending on what God's laws say. Let's look at your tax example.

If I fill anything in my taxforms that's either untrue or a halftruth. Then I believe this is called lying. And lying is deemed wrong in all religions that I'm aware of.
3) If morals are dictated by religion, then which is the right one?
Here's the real tough one and the one that people might not agree with me in (in fact I'm pretty certain many people won't agree...most in fact.

I believe that the religion I follow (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints AKA the Mormons) is the only right religion on this earth. (Let's not have a discussion about whether I in consequence believe that all other people go to hell...it's not that simple and that's also not what this topic is about).

I also believe that under the concept of the religion I follow good would come to all men. Whether they believed that it came from God or not.

I quote from our articles of faith:

The Eleventh article of faith states:

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

The twelfth

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

And last but not least the thirteenth

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Furthermore I believe that all religions were founded upon a basis of doing good and that most religions (in their purest form) would be good to base laws and government on.

(I said most, not all but I'll not expand on this here since I don't think it's the place OR time for it.)

"Hey, MIC! Get a 10 foot pole.... Never mind still too close!"

1) I'll go with Thomas Aquinas and Rosa Parks on this one. Sometimes laws of men are created to maintain an unjust status quo. In addition to that, with the combination of Democracy and an increasing focus on marketing, politicians are passing laws to boost their image instead of the quality of life of their constituents. For that reason, I look at every law from a critical standpoint. Some are no-brainers, like putting people in jail for murder, theft and rape, but others, like Ontario's Bill 203 (ammendments to the Highway Traffic Act's section 172) are pure panic-mongering and I wouldn't give them a second thought if I knew there were no cops around.
2) If breaking the law of Man doesn't break any rules of the law of God, it should not affect my afterlife. God gave us the ability to reason logically and that includes interpretation of the laws.
3) There is no right one. Most religious laws are based on societies from hundreds or thousands of years ago. Human society has changed. With that being said, there are some timeless ones like prohibition of theft, murder or "Do onto others..."

1) Is it morally wrong to disobey the laws of men?

Most of the time but not always. There are lots of unjust laws that have been made by immoral rulers throughout time. Then there are laws that go contra to your own survival (like laws against using force in self-defense) It is never amoral to fight for your very life despite what some cockeyed idiots think.

2) Does disobediance have an affect on your afterlife?

NO.

Many of the laws of man no longer have any sane resemblance to the laws of God. Man has overcomplicated some very simple issues.

I think there are even some points in ancient Jewish law that leave God scratching his head going "where did that come from?".



3) If morals are dictated by religion, then which is the right one?

Mine.

No seriously.

Mine!

Thats what everyones thinks. As long as your personal religion allows you to co-exist with non-believers without requiring that you kill them ("cough" is.. "cough")we can all get along. There is more overlap than you might think. Jews and Christians of course have the exact same basic moral structure Jews just have additional "lifestyle "rules on top of the moral basics God laid down. Your Eastern religions have already co-existed peacefully for centuries. That only leaves one powerful objector out there and well...

In order to have a society though we end up creating mans "laws" which will most often not really being a moral imperative should be followed so our group of many moral compasses can co-exist.

Any religion can turn into a "powerful objector" and that just depends on the moment in history.
Plenty of Christians would be happy if "somebody" went down to "where powerful objectors live" and killed all "powerful objectors." They'd even volunteer for that. The spirits of Christian Crusades and "powerful objector's" Jihad are still alive (unfortunately).
You can use quotes from any religion to rile uneducated poor masses into a "holy" war. All it takes is the right kind of marketing.

Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

Any religion can turn into a "powerful objector" and that just depends on the moment in history.
Plenty of Christians would be happy if "somebody" went down to "where powerful objectors live" and killed all "powerful objectors." They'd even volunteer for that. The spirits of Christian Crusades and "powerful objector's" Jihad are still alive (unfortunately).
You can use quotes from any religion to rile uneducated poor masses into a "holy" war. All it takes is the right kind of marketing.

True but with most religions the quotes have to be taken out of context and then be twisted to reach that end. Other religions where founded on a perversion in the first place so this has already been done.

Originally Posted by Bruno

1) Is it morally wrong to disobey the laws of men?
2) Does disobediance have an affect on your afterlife?
3) If morals are dictated by religion, then which is the right one?

before I begin, I'd like to say that my religion is going to color my answers, because it helps define my internal sense of morality. (some people refer to this as the Moral Compass)

1) not in the slightest. the laws of men are artificial constructs designed to PROTECT SOCIETY. (it is arguable how effective some of them are at this, but that is not germane to the current discussion) speeding is disobeying the laws of man, and i don't think that is immoral. stupid? yeah. unsafe? definitely. but you will have a hard time finding someone that thinks speeding is morally wrong. we have a speed limit to prevent wrecks, not to prevent sin.

2) in my view, no, because my religion doesn't support the idea of there BEING an afterlife of any sort, so there you have it. kind of a moot point to me.

3) well, in the view of my religion, your morals are YOUR morals. if you feel that something is morally wrong, don't do it. every man lives by his own code, to some extent. my religion is pretty big on not projecting your values onto others. the one exception to this is when morals collide, at which point, both parties must behave as they wish UNLESS this should cause one party to injure the other, which is not acceptable.

as previously stated, i follow an odd religion, so these answers are going to seem peculiar to some.