Thread: Sad, sad sign of the times...

First thing to think about is....... just who it was that phased it out and why. I think it's sad that most don't even realize that they are living under the law of the military flag.

Before 1940, no U.S. flag, civil or military, flew within the forty-eight states except in federal settings and installations. Only state flags did. Since the 1935 institution of Social Security and the Buck Act of 1940 by clever legal maneuvers the feds have entirely circumvented the U.S. Constitution, and have overlaid federal territorial jurisdiction on the sovereign States, bringing them under the admiralty/military jurisdiction of Law Merchant, the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), the law of Creditors and Debtors. I won't go into who these folks are.
We have a problem here. By 1980 nearly all documentation of the Civil Flag had been omitted in school books. I think it's time to wake up, take a look around, and put our government back in it place.

Originally Posted by JMS

I doubt that many people are going to remember a flag that was phased out more than 50 years ago!

Originally Posted by denmason

First thing to think about is....... just who it was that phased it out and why. I think it's sad that most don't even realize that they are living under the law of the military flag.

Before 1940, no U.S. flag, civil or military, flew within the forty-eight states except in federal settings and installations. Only state flags did. Since the 1935 institution of Social Security and the Buck Act of 1940 by clever legal maneuvers the feds have entirely circumvented the U.S. Constitution, and have overlaid federal territorial jurisdiction on the sovereign States, bringing them under the admiralty/military jurisdiction of Law Merchant, the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), the law of Creditors and Debtors. I won't go into who these folks are.
We have a problem here. By 1980 nearly all documentation of the Civil Flag had been omitted in school books. I think it's time to wake up, take a look around, and put our government back in it place.

Well ain't that interesting

Justin

Originally Posted by gugi

Good one, Dennis! Yep, that would be the civil peacetime flag of USA.

>Buzzzer sound< This is a variation of the Customs flag. This myth of a peacetime flag keeps cropping up every so often since 2000, usually pulled from sites railing again the IRS, paying taxes, espousing more state's rights, etc. As a vexillologist of over 35 years, (from the Latin vexillum - flag), I can find no historic evidence for this flag with vertical stripes and a field of stars in the canton being termed a "peace flag". The closest is the Revenue Ensign of 1799 (initiated by Alexander Hamilton to distinguish governmental vessels from military ones, but not instituted until under his successor in 1799), which may have been inspired by the flag of the Sons of Liberty (those crazy guys who threw all that tea into Boston Harbor).

I know of no references, photographs, regulations, or images showing this supposed flag in use. If it were a national flag, then there should be 19th photographs or images showing it in use on schools, churches, stores, merchant ships, etc. It isn't even the Revenue Ensign which has the US Coat of Arms in the canton. Also, there is no reference to a "civil" or "peacetime" flag in the Flag Act of 1818, which establishes the design and policies (adding a star for new states) for the US flag. Up until then, people kept adding stripes and stars for states (what a mess the flag would be now!) and Congress decided to standardize things.

The US is unique in that it only has one national flag, as opposed to a national flag and then military ensigns, like other countries - for example, a British warship can fly the Union Jack, but also flies the British Naval Ensign...US ships fly just the US flag.

The Armed Services have their Service flags, but no one paints the Navy flag on the side of a ship or the Army flag on the side of a tank.....

The Confederacy had numerous flags: during its existence, there were 3 national flags (I have yet to find a reason why they kept changing them...I have always thought the first one "Stars and Bars" was very nice, as flags go) and the more famous battle flag (red field with a blue St. Andrew's cross, edged in white, with white stars displayed on the arms of the cross...the "Rebel Flag"). The last two national flags used the battle flag in the canton.

Also, the US flag has been adapted for many different uses (military units, business would put slogans on it, elections, etc.) but always with the horizontal stripes and blue canton. Adding things to the flag was stopped in 1897 when almost all the states instituted flag desecration laws. In 1912, President Taft signed the order establishing the dimensions of the flag. You can also fly any US flag from history (the 13 stars in a circle, etc.) as opposed to many nations whose historic flags are illegal.

I have always viewed our flag as the flag of the citizens, not the government. It is the flag designed by a patriotic woman - a civilian. It is a flag that every resident can display - without exception. It is the flag that unifies the nation, taking the place of the flags of independent nations which joined the Union (Bonnie Blue of Free and Independent State of West Florida - 1810; Lone Star republic (Texas) -1839; Bear Flag of the California Republic - 1846. The Bonnie Blue reappeared during the secessionist gatherings in 1861 and was used throughout the Confederacy.)

Do your own research. If anyone has an authentic image of this mystery flag being used (not the Revenue Ensign), I would love to add it to my references.

I was gonna say, I thought that came from the Scarlet Letter, not any actual flag usage.

Originally Posted by WireBeard

The US is unique in that it only has one national flag, as opposed to a national flag and then military ensigns, like other countries - for example, a British warship can fly the Union Jack, but also flies the British Naval Ensign...US ships fly just the US flag.

I have to disagree with only one point. The US Navy has a Jack also. It flys at the bow of the vessel and is the field of Blue with the Stars of the state. Honestly it is just the star part of the flag minus the stripes. Point of flying which, I do not know...

Edit: Little change in what I said... the field of blue is the American Union Jack. The rattle snake with the "Don't thread on me" with the stripes was the first Navy jack which in 2003 under the Sec of Navy order, all US ships are to fly for the duration of the War on Terror.

Originally Posted by valhson

I have to disagree with only one point. The US Navy has a Jack also. It flys at the bow of the vessel and is the field of Blue with the Stars of the state. Honestly it is just the star part of the flag minus the stripes. Point of flying which, I do not know...

Edit: Little change in what I said... the field of blue is the American Union Jack. The rattle snake with the "Don't thread on me" with the stripes was the first Navy jack which in 2003 under the Sec of Navy order, all US ships are to fly for the duration of the War on Terror.

Yes, we have a jack (ours is the canton of the US Flag) but the British Navy actually has a flag they fly in addition to the national flag. Civilian vessels fly a different colored ensign.

Cool link: http://www.flags.net/UNKG.htm

Did you know the so-called War on Terror has now been going on longer than World War II (The presence of troops in Iraq has been just under 6 years....) with only 2 countries occupied....hardly a glowing example of military success (because the politicians have ignored the military leadership's recommendations)

The "war on Terror" has only been outligned as such by society for 6 years, but in reality we have been under attack from terrorists since the 70's
It just took a monumental attack to open our eyes.


as for the flag or ensign, I could care less how many flags we do or don't have... pick one fly it, I promise not to declare jihad.

I agree that no religion should have absolute power, or should call for war or murder.
The christians did it in the past, they still have their issues... look at the catholics and protestants in Ireland...
but radical Islam is a much bigger and growing problem.
You keep saying we are losing in Iraq, but what you forget is we are trying to stabilise a nation, while under attack from outsiders... the insurgents are coming from Iran, Siria, and any other rock they can crawl out from to try to defeat the American invaders. Our soldiers are doing good over there, they are helping a small part of the middle east learn to be free.
If we were losing so badly as you claim the insurgents wouldn't be strapping bombs to retarded girls and detonating them by remote control...
we are fighting a minority that holds the general population under a veil of fear. eventually they will get tired of this, and the Iraqis will take control of their country.

I've talked to soldiers that tell me when they come home and hear the news about Iraq they can't believe their ears! they say the news is reporting a different story than what is actually happening! they tell me they are building schools, building hospitals, running power! they say that most Iraqis are thankful for what we and other countries have done and are doing! One soldier told me that when he first went to Iraq that 80 firefights a week were common and now it has come down to 8 firefights a week!

It appears to me that that is winning!

The news seems to be slanted one way or the other for political or other nefarious reasons all over the world and not just here in the states as I commonly hear!
I wonder what they are up to?

Originally Posted by JMS

I've talked to soldiers that tell me when they come home and hear the news about Iraq they can't believe their ears! they say the news is reporting a different story than what is actually happening! they tell me they are building schools, building hospitals, running power! they say that most Iraqis are thankful for what we and other countries have done and are doing! One soldier told me that when he first went to Iraq that 80 firefights a week were common and now it has come down to 8 firefights a week!

It appears to me that that is winning!

The news seems to be slanted one way or the other for political or other nefarious reasons all over the world and not just here in the states as I commonly hear!
I wonder what they are up to?

It's called "ratings"....things going "boom" are more interesting than "Oh, look...a nice new school!"

Sad, but true.

Originally Posted by WireBeard

Yes, we have a jack (ours is the canton of the US Flag) but the British Navy actually has a flag they fly in addition to the national flag. Civilian vessels fly a different colored ensign.

Originally Posted by WireBeard

Cool link: http://www.flags.net/UNKG.htm ]

Maybe we are confusing each other here. We also have two flags that fly on each Naval Vessel. The Ensign (American flag for U.S.A.) flies from the fantail, transom, or stern of each ship. The Jack (now changed to the first naval jack, i.e. rattle snake version) flies at the bow of the vessel. Should there not be proper placing at the bow i.e. Carriers; the Jack is flown from the mast on the bridge. Only flag that goes above the jack is a commission pendent (or Fleet Command) should there be one.

http://www.flags.net/UNST.htm#UNST0008

I do realize what you are saying where the Brits have the naval ensign, civil ensign, and Union Jack (though used as the Countries flag. The separation of Ensigns came about as identification needs of the time. One was not sure with some converted sloops of war, if it was a Naval Vessel or a Merchant ship. If you also notice, many of the former colonies under military rule use a variation of the Government/Naval Reserve ensign with a crest, and colonies that were not military rule but under the Commonwealth used the civil/merchant ensign. Take NZ or Aus., as examples of the former and the islands of the Caribbean for the latter.