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  1. #31
    Junior Honemeister Mike_ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trewornan View Post
    I managed to resist for a while but now I can't help saying something I know will be contentious:

    I've got to point out that for all the US's vaunted superpower status, the military has managed to get their ass kicked with monotonous regularity in the last 50 years or so.

    Begin flamefest . . .
    I have to strongly disagree with this statement, The united States Military has never had it's ass kicked by any nation. The losses we have suffered were losses at the hands of our own politicians.
    Any army will take a beating if their hands are tied by politicians.
    The only time in my memory when our military was given free reign was in the first gulf war, It was expected to be a bloody long drawn out battle to get the Iraqis out of Kuwait, and they did it in a matter of hours.
    If the politicians would get their heads out of their butts, and allow the military to run the war, it would be equally fast and bloody, but it would be over, and the speed of it would save lives in the long run.
    Had we let the military loose in Vietnam, we would have won there too, but instead they were told to bomb rice patties and ignore the real targets, because we didn't want to piss off the enemy.

    These code pink idiots are a menace to our society, so I have to hit on them... they are the loud mouthed minority, but our government is giving in to their pressure... as far as camping in trees in Berkley goes, I say cut the trees down, they will move.

    and the flag burning is a symbolic attack on our country, I'm not really offended when some brainwashed arab does it, especially when said arab lights himself up in the process

    I however feel that any one in America who chooses to make strong anti-american statements needs to get the hell out.
    You're free to disagree with the government, you can hate Bush, or Hillary, but respect the freedom that countless american soldiers have died to give you, respect the flag that they died for.

    That's what that flag stands for, the sacrifices made to keep it flying, that's why it's retired in a respectful manner.

    Also you should be happy that you haven't seen The USA flex it's true might, It's something I fear we might see if we end up going to war with a nuclear armed Iran...
    Of course we might get better mileage from irradiated Gasoline.
    Should a terrorist nation attack us, the american people will call for blood in a manner never seen before. Iran is in the crosshairs because of their open support for insurgents, and their strong anti-american attitude. We are not the devil, but if they continue to support our enemies, they will eventually provoke us, and there will be no power on this earth that can protect them then.
    I really fear a nuclear armed Iran, not because of what they might do with a bomb... because of how I believe we will retaliate, or how the Isralis will retaliate...

  2. #32
    The original Skolor and Gentileman. gugi's Avatar
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    First, I demand some rispek for the carrot juice. This is a beverage as tasty as a goat milk so no aggression against it will stand!!!

    OK now let me opine on the ass-kicking - the fact is the superpower US did loose the war in Viet Nam, and it doesn't matter if it was the politicians or the soldiers. The kill-ratios are only one side - you have to take into account the ability to sustain casualties too. I hope this is not taken as disrespect as I don't mean any. My country has had it's period of glory over a thousand years ago but currently its role is marginal at best. And our recent history is full of examples where the soldiers have won all the battles, yet the politicians have lost the wars, so that concept is pretty familiar to me as well.

    As far as patriotism goes, one of the first thing I noticed in 2nd grade when we started learning some basic history is that all the battles/wars that were won by my country were 'liberation', while all the ones that were lost were 'invasion' on the other part. Unfortunately when I asked the question nobody was interested to answer it. Many years later in college I lived with a graduating historian, who also had few years of high-school teaching experience prior college. He told me that all the history that is put out for mass consumption - schools, mainstream books, media is propaganda in patriotism. And there are a lot of 'facts' that are just plain lies.
    Of course I grew up in communist country, so if you want you can blame it on the commies.

    Nevertheless after living in several countries and getting to know closely people from every continent and every major religion, the patriotism on me is a bit lost. People are very similar, every group has their good and bad quirks, just a bit different than the next one. So I just appreciate them for what they are (yes, the french too - for example a nice burgundy in my book is something zin, or should I say primitivo, will never come even close to).

  3. #33
    Affable Chap Nickelking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
    Express you displeasure using any symbol you wish, I see it as your Constitutional right. At the same time, if I see you flying a national flag over the U.S. flag on U.S. soil, we are going to have a fight. See the difference?
    Exactly!

    The intent in firing up the flag is what bothers me too btw. Usually it's done to express displeasure with a certain situation or current administration. That's fine with me, I can't think of any situation where it's been done as a protest to the US as a whole.


    Edited to add: I'm wondering if I should comment on the Iran statements. I want to, but I hate getting involved in heavy political debates, especially with people I respect as much as I do Mike, that said I've gotta share my views.

    There are several misstatements and quarter truths being said about Iran behind the current fervor for going after them. Looking at what we've done with them from the early 50's and beyond as well as our relationship with Pakistan in the mean time. I can't bring myself to support any attack against them (as things stand now.)

    We keep being told that Iran = pre-war Iraq and seem to have forgotten that their religions are fundamentally opposed to each others existence as well as the fact that they've never been able to agree on anything. (sorry, that was hyperbole, I'll stop now.)
    Last edited by Nickelking; 02-13-2008 at 02:40 AM.

  4. #34
    Born on the Bayou jaegerhund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickelking View Post
    Exactly!

    The intent in firing up the flag is what bothers me too btw. Usually it's done to express displeasure with a certain situation or current administration. That's fine with me, I can't think of any situation where it's been done as a protest to the US as a whole.
    So why not burn a Republican Elephant or Democratic Donkey --- or something else -- the flag seems to me to be pretty inclusive --- maybe it's the best way to get attention.

    I try to put myself in the position of where I might burn the flag ----- and I just can't. Hilary Clinton as president ? No ---- An administration is found responsible for the most terrible of crimes -- maybe mass genocide of millions as in Nazi Germany? No ------ because the flag represents more than an administration or President or dirty deed. I can't see a reason why I would burn the flag without intending to disparage the nation as a whole . I guess I just don't get it.

    Justin

  5. #35
    BHAD cured Sticky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trewornan View Post
    ...
    I've got to point out that for all the US's vaunted superpower status, the military has managed to get their ass kicked with monotonous regularity in the last 50 years or so.
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by gugi View Post
    ...
    OK now let me opine on the ass-kicking - the fact is the superpower US did loose the war in Viet Nam, and it doesn't matter if it was the politicians or the soldiers.
    ...
    In matters insofar as trewornan's original claim was that "the military" got their ass kicked. He made a very clear distinction. It is that precise distinction that I was/am addressing and referring to.

    Clearly wrong by any standard.

    EDIT: to jaegerhund; I wasn't trying to take you to task, only the concept. I personally find burning any national symbol somewhat distasteful. I would still defend your right to do it though.
    Last edited by Sticky; 02-13-2008 at 03:03 AM.

  6. #36
    The original Skolor and Gentileman. gugi's Avatar
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    Yep, you are correct, he did refer to the US military - my bad.

  7. #37
    Affable Chap Nickelking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaegerhund View Post
    So why not burn a Republican Elephant or Democratic Donkey --- or something else -- the flag seems to me to be pretty inclusive --- maybe it's the best way to get attention.

    Justin
    I think you hit the nail on the head there, you'll get less press by burning something less loved. And if you burn an effigy you may get near the same press but also a visit by the secret service (I'm still trying to figure out why they have the secret part in there.) I agree that it's not a good choice to use the flag, and I as well can't think of any scenario where I'd go to that extreme. But I tend to focus a lot more on the intent than on the act, that's one of the reasons I left the lutheran religion. Of course that's another touchy subject that we can save for another thread.

  8. #38
    Heat it and beat it Bruno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
    You bring the flag, I'll bring the marshmallows.
    My thoughts exacly. I don't see why people are all worked up about flag burning. It's a piece of cloth.
    Til shade is gone, til water is gone, Into the shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath.
    To spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the Last Day

  9. #39
    JMS
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    Usagi Yojimbo JMS's Avatar
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    Bruno, It is what that cloth stands for! A symbol? yes. A piece of cloth? Yes, but in most peoples mind the flag deserves a certain respect because it stands for the principles that a country was founded upon, so when you burn the flag as a protest many people see that you are showing contempt for the ideals and principals that your country was founded upon and that are in the hearts of many! Besides to burn a flag does nothing but cause a serious division and does nothing to solve any problem that may be at hand!

    trewornan, I wonder where England, or for that matter, the rest of the world would be if Winston Churchill was too "mature" or "sophisticated" to stand up to Germany in world war 2. I will be glad to do without maturity or sophistication if I had a tenth of the metal that Sir Winston Churchill had! I wonder, does his sort of character still exist in England, or for that matter, any where in the world?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QehNT...eature=related

  • #40
    Vlad the Impaler LX_Emergency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMS View Post
    Bruno, It is what that cloth stands for! A symbol? yes. A piece of cloth? Yes, but in most peoples mind the flag deserves a certain respect because it stands for the principles that a country was founded upon, so when you burn the flag as a protest many people see that you are showing contempt for the ideals and principals that your country was founded upon and that are in the hearts of many! Besides to burn a flag does nothing but cause a serious division and does nothing to solve any problem that may be at hand!

    trewornan, I wonder where England, or for that matter, the rest of the world would be if Winston Churchill was too "mature" or "sophisticated" to stand up to Germany in world war 2. I will be glad to do without maturity or sophistication if I had a tenth of the metal that Sir Winston Churchill had! I wonder, does his sort of character still exist in England, or for that matter, any where in the world?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QehNT...eature=related
    Pulling out the second world war card is getting a bit old.

    Whenever someone says something negative about the US I hear at least ONE american pull out the "We saved your ass in WW2" card. I'm getting a bit sick of that.

    My grandfather was alive then and I'm sure he's happy that the allies came and helped out. I however wasn't alive and neither was my father. And I'm pretty sure most people on this forum weren't either. So if you weren't there...don't brag about it.

    We don't blame modern germans for ww2 neither should modern americans take credit for something they weren't alive to do.

    As for the winning the war thing. I don't know any numbers on casualties. But even if those on the VC side were larger I wonder "Is it a matter of numbers to win a war?" And I think not. If it was then the russians would never have won in eastern europe in WW2. They simply threw men into the grinder untill the grinder got clogged. They still won though.

    Burning the flag.

    I don't get insulted when someone burns a flag. I simply think the person doing it is an idiot. And I think someone who get's insulted by an idiot is close to being an idiot as well.

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