Sad, sad sign of the times...

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Originally Posted by JMS

It is this very contempt and cynicism that brings down nations! Wars do not bring down nations. government does not bring down nations. the death of hope and the birth of contempt brings down nations! Hope will drive us upward and onward to better things no matter the circumstance while contempt and cynicism will bring us to the depths of hell! and you know what? We all have the choice! Our future depends not on our government or our neighbor, but on each and every one of us! Our attitudes shape our actions and our actions shape our future!
Many nations lay at the feet of contempt while our nation is still young and hasn't completely given in to contempt! We still have hope! Lets not whittle away at that hope any further !!

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Now that hits the nail on the head!

This is the very reason that I'm not offended when a foreigner burns our flag, but when an American does I get all riled up...
Regardless of how you feel about the war, it is the duty of every one of us to support thos soldiers. They didn't start the war, but they are sent to fight and die while Hillary Clinton and Dianne Feinstein announce to the world that we are losing the war and they are dying for nothing... Talk about demoralizing.

My comments about attacking Iran are harsh, and yes extreme, but we have to fight these terrorists at their source. If we can't attach them to a specific country, then we have to go after the leadership of the organisation. If that means assasinating religious leaders, then so be it.
Maybe Israel has the right idea... Fighting terrorists with covert counter terrorism. kill the leaders in anonymous car bombing attacks...

I don't know, but the free world is going to need a wolf to step in and fight back, and the longer it takes, the more drawn out and violent it will be.
If the hippies in Berkley get their way, we will all lose. Freedom isn't free. and hugging trees or singing "coom-bye-a" isn't going to stop the fighting.


As for wearing a distasteful effigy of Jesus in the USA, you will get dirty looks, nasty comments, and possible a bloody nose(not likely) but you will not encite a riot, or get anybody killed.
That particular effigy og mohammad was published in a Swiss? newspaper, and it incited riots, and Muslim clerics called for the death (murder) of the artist, and publisher of the newspaper...
There are many out there who claim that Islam is a peaceful religion, but I just don't see it... I've never heard of The Mormon church calling for the assassination of anyone who offended them... I'm pretty sure the Pope doesn't have a hit list...
In fact I'm not aware of any other religious group that promises anyone a bunch of brown eyed virgins if they die for this reason or that...
And yes I'm generalizing, I know there are many groups in Islam, but the extremists are winning...
I have a very good friend who is an Iranian born Christian. His whole family fled after the fall of the Shaw. Man has he got stories... his uncle was stopped in the street by those nice peace loving Islamists, and asked if he was christian or muslim... he took too long so they shot him 9 times. He crawled 3 blocks before he died no one would help him, he wasn't muslim.

Saudi Arabia our good friends don't like christians either... If you are caught teaching christian beliefs over there you are sent to prison, if you are a citizen of that country and are caught with a copy of the bible, you are executed. If you wish to be a cetizen you have to convert to Islam, and they are the ones setting up these schools around the world and middle east that teach the most extreme forms of Islam.
:shrug: What do you do?

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Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

Now that hits the nail on the head!

This is the very reason that I'm not offended when a foreigner burns our flag, but when an American does I get all riled up...
Regardless of how you feel about the war, it is the duty of every one of us to support thos soldiers. They didn't start the war, but they are sent to fight and die while Hillary Clinton and Dianne Feinstein announce to the world that we are losing the war and they are dying for nothing... Talk about demoralizing.
True, no-one likes to hear that what they're doing is for nothing. Especially if they're risking their lives in it.
My comments about attacking Iran are harsh, and yes extreme, but we have to fight these terrorists at their source. If we can't attach them to a specific country, then we have to go after the leadership of the organisation. If that means assasinating religious leaders, then so be it.
Maybe Israel has the right idea... Fighting terrorists with covert counter terrorism. kill the leaders in anonymous car bombing attacks...
I agree.....but no proof has led to Iran concerning Terrorism (yet maybe). In fact most of the terrorist are of a completely different denomination than Iran is.
I don't know, but the free world is going to need a wolf to step in and fight back, and the longer it takes, the more drawn out and violent it will be.

I'd rather have a sheperd to be honest. He's got a sling, a stick and takes care of the ones he's been put over. I'm not sure I'd rather have a wolf than a sheperd.

If the hippies in Berkley get their way, we will all lose. Freedom isn't free. and hugging trees or singing "coom-bye-a" isn't going to stop the fighting.
Freedom is mostly limited by fear. And the way terrorism is spoken of in the states (or at least what goes OUT of the states into the rest of the world) is FEAR. Fear of being attacked, Fear of being overrun by the Islam etc. Striking back does NOT diminish the fear since the strike was forwarded by fear. I agree that freedom isn't free....but freedom is in the mind. Not in laws/religion etc.

As for wearing a distasteful effigy of Jesus in the USA, you will get dirty looks, nasty comments, and possible a bloody nose(not likely) but you will not encite a riot, or get anybody killed.
Probably
That particular effigy og mohammad was published in a Swiss? (Denmark)newspaper, and it incited riots, and Muslim clerics called for the death (murder) of the artist, and publisher of the newspaper...
There are many out there who claim that Islam is a peaceful religion, but I just don't see it... I've never heard of The Mormon church calling for the assassination of anyone who offended them... I'm pretty sure the Pope doesn't have a hit list...
In fact I'm not aware of any other religious group that promises anyone a bunch of brown eyed virgins if they die for this reason or that...
Very true. The Islam seems to be more extreme than most other religions out there.
And yes I'm generalizing, I know there are many groups in Islam, but the extremists are winning...
I have a very good friend who is an Iranian born Christian. His whole family fled after the fall of the Shaw. Man has he got stories... his uncle was stopped in the street by those nice peace loving Islamists, and asked if he was christian or muslim... he took too long so they shot him 9 times. He crawled 3 blocks before he died no one would help him, he wasn't muslim.
Actually...this kind of thing happends daily in the so called "civilised" world. Mostly it's not because of religion though but for FEAR of own safety. People are affraid that if they help someone who's in need they might get struck with the same fate. That's why some people bleed to death in the middle of the street after being robbed in the middle of American/European cities.

That doesn't mean I don't think that's terrible and shouldn't have happened. Just trying to put things into perspective a little.
Saudi Arabia our good friends don't like christians either... If you are caught teaching christian beliefs over there you are sent to prison, if you are a citizen of that country and are caught with a copy of the bible, you are executed. If you wish to be a cetizen you have to convert to Islam, and they are the ones setting up these schools around the world and middle east that teach the most extreme forms of Islam.

Yup. I think that's wrong as well. But if they don't like it they should have a revolution and change it. Ball's in their court on that one.
:shrug: What do you do?
Not much. Just make sure you don't make the same misstakes really. That's all one can do in reality.

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I agree with your ideas on the wrongness of the situation. However when it comes to the Islam I don't see things quite as black and white as you do.

I've known quite a few muslims and they're highly principled, decent, and peace loving people.

Yes, there's some psycho's out there....and yes, in the middle east quite a few of them are in power.

But that doesn't mean that every muslim is a terrorist waiting to happen.

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Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

I agree with your ideas on the wrongness of the situation. However when it comes to the Islam I don't see things quite as black and white as you do.

I've known quite a few muslims and they're highly principled, decent, and peace loving people.

Yes, there's some psycho's out there....and yes, in the middle east quite a few of them are in power.

But that doesn't mean that every muslim is a terrorist waiting to happen.

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+1 on LX_Emergency's comment

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Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

Regardless of how you feel about the war, it is the duty of every one of us to support thos soldiers. They didn't start the war, but they are sent to fight and die while Hillary Clinton and Dianne Feinstein announce to the world that we are losing the war and they are dying for nothing... Talk about demoralizing.

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To be honest, the USA IS losing the war, and the only reason it is more or less under control is that there is an enormous US force present, and they outgun the locals.

The information is going around everywhere. If Hillary would say otherwise it would be like saying 'Hy Brasil is NOT sinking.'

And those soldiers dying should not have died. And their deaths are not in vain, but imo (and not only mine apparently) they should not have been over there in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

My comments about attacking Iran are harsh, and yes extreme, but we have to fight these terrorists at their source. If we can't attach them to a specific country, then we have to go after the leadership of the organisation. If that means assasinating religious leaders, then so be it.
Maybe Israel has the right idea... Fighting terrorists with covert counter terrorism. kill the leaders in anonymous car bombing attacks...

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Even as a semi pacifist I can agree there. Runing a country is a messy business, but far better to procedd with surgical precision, than with a nuclear strike. Especially since the generl population has done nothing wrong. OK they might hate you, but that is their right.

Otoh it is a double edged sword.
The US has put saddam in place in the seventies to stop the communists from getting influence.
And the CIA topped a democratically elected government in Iran, and the results are anything but fine.

I agree with your point in principle, but it is a dangerous and complex game.

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Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

I don't know, but the free world is going to need a wolf to step in and fight back, and the longer it takes, the more drawn out and violent it will be.
If the hippies in Berkley get their way, we will all lose. Freedom isn't free. and hugging trees or singing "coom-bye-a" isn't going to stop the fighting.

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Cumbaya will not make the world a better place, but the spy game is not guaranteed to be perfect either. Iran and Iraq are 2 prime examples of this.
And open war between nuclear powers WILL wipe us out.

Part of the reasons the US is hated in the middle east is not your freedom (because we have that as well) but the fact that the US is very casual about disturbing foreign politics simply to get its way.

Suppose the Iranian CIA equivalent topples the US government and plunges the country in chaos. tens of thousands die. 20 years later you become an influential man with power. would you forget the death of your loved ones? would you not hold a grudge? would you not perhapps support those who want revenge?

I agree that extremist islam (this is not a slur against Islam in general.) is a fertile breeding ground for raising people blinded by hatred, but you cannot seriously believe that the generation whose lives were ruined forget about it?

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Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

Saudi Arabia our good friends don't like christians either... If you are caught teaching christian beliefs over there you are sent to prison, if you are a citizen of that country and are caught with a copy of the bible, you are executed. If you wish to be a cetizen you have to convert to Islam, and they are the ones setting up these schools around the world and middle east that teach the most extreme forms of Islam.
:shrug: What do you do?

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Nothing I guess, because they might start selling oil for Euros, and that would pretty much be the end for the US dollar.

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Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

As for wearing a distasteful effigy of Jesus in the USA, you will get dirty looks, nasty comments, and possible a bloody nose(not likely) but you will not encite a riot, or get anybody killed.
That particular effigy og mohammad was published in a Swiss? newspaper, and it incited riots, and Muslim clerics called for the death (murder) of the artist, and publisher of the newspaper...
There are many out there who claim that Islam is a peaceful religion, but I just don't see it... I've never heard of The Mormon church calling for the assassination of anyone who offended them... I'm pretty sure the Pope doesn't have a hit list...
In fact I'm not aware of any other religious group that promises anyone a bunch of brown eyed virgins if they die for this reason or that...
And yes I'm generalizing, I know there are many groups in Islam, but the extremists are winning...
I have a very good friend who is an Iranian born Christian. His whole family fled after the fall of the Shaw. Man has he got stories... his uncle was stopped in the street by those nice peace loving Islamists, and asked if he was christian or muslim... he took too long so they shot him 9 times. He crawled 3 blocks before he died no one would help him, he wasn't muslim.

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To be honest, christianity has a pretty dubious past as well. The only reason it is not violent anymore is that it doesn't have power.
Actually I firmly believe that any religion that gets real worldy pwoer will promptly commit atrocities

from:
http://www.theskepticalreview.com/JA...DeathToll.html

-- The First Crusade was launched in 1095 with the battle cry "Deus Vult" (God wills it), a mandate to destroy infidels in the Holy Land. Gathering crusaders in Germany first fell upon "the infidel among us," Jews in the Rhine valley, thousands of whom were dragged from their homes or hiding places and hacked to death or burned alive. Then the religious legions plundered their way 2,000 miles to Jerusalem, where they killed virtually every inhabitant, "purifying" the symbolic city. Cleric Raymond of Aguilers wrote: "In the temple of Solomon, one rode in blood up to the knees and even to the horses' bridles, by the just and marvelous judgment of God."

-- In 1209, Pope Innocent III launched an armed crusade against Albigenses Christians in southern France. When the besieged city of Beziers fell, soldiers reportedly asked their papal adviser how to distinguish the faithful from the infidel among the captives. He commanded: "Kill them all. God will know his own." Nearly 20,000 were slaughtered -- many first blinded, mutilated, dragged behind horses, or used for target practice.

-- In the 1400s, the Inquisition shifted its focus to witchcraft. Priests tortured untold thousands of women into confessing that they were witches who flew through the sky and engaged in sex with the devil -- then they were burned or hanged for their confessions. Witch hysteria raged for three centuries in a dozen nations. Estimates of the number executed vary from 100,000 to 2 million. Whole villages were exterminated. In the first half of the 17th century, about 5,000 "witches" were put to death in the French province of Alsace, and 900 were burned in the Bavarian city of Bamberg. The witch craze was religious madness at its worst.

-- When Puritans settled in Massachusetts in the 1600s, they created a religious police state where doctrinal deviation could lead to flogging, pillorying, hanging, cutting off ears, or boring through the tongue with a hot iron. Preaching Quaker beliefs was a capital offense. Four stubborn Quakers defied this law and were hanged. In the 1690s fear of witches seized the colony. Twenty alleged witches were killed and 150 others imprisoned

But in this day and age, I agree with you. The ocasional nut case aside, christians are not likely to kill for their beliefs.

I really hope that Islam eventually loses political power, just like christianity lost power.

I'd have to agree that any religious extremist, of any religion, is pretty much...well...extreme...

On that note, I offer this parody on terrorism, and heavy satire that takes at least three different religious beliefs to task (in the interest of equal-opportunity-agitation). Enjoy.

• WARNING: This link contains inflammatory statements, foul language, and other vile things that CODERED would probably not approve of. Tough for them. If you are insulted by any of this stuff, do not click on this link!

So far we've used this thread to talk about/debate politics, religion, world peace, etc... I vote that the next subject be "red-headed women"!

As LX mentioned that Americans bringing up the "we saved your ass" thing is getting old, people bringing up Christianity's bad history is getting old as well --- we all know about the crusades, etc and all the atrocities -- what does this have to do with the present day Islamic situation ------ is this some type of justification? I'm not a particularly religious person, but I'm not worried about Christians (maybe a LDS knocking on your door can be a little annoying ;).) I'm not worried about Buddhist, Shinto(ist?), etc --- but I am worried about Islam ----because I live in the present.

Justin

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Originally Posted by jaegerhund

(maybe a LDS knocking on your door can be a little annoying ;).)
Justin

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Really? Missionaries around your place must not have a lot of imagination.

I've never knocked the same door twice on my mission. And most neighbourhoods I went doorknocking (I hated that bit and avoided it as much as possible) hadn't been visited by LDS missionaries in at LEAST 5 years.

A visit once every 5 years can't be too bad....:w

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Originally Posted by jaegerhund

As LX mentioned that Americans bringing up the "we saved your ass" thing is getting old, people bringing up Christianity's bad history is getting old as well --- we all know about the crusades, etc and all the atrocities -- what does this have to do with the present day Islamic situation ------ is this some type of justification? I'm not a particularly religious person, but I'm not worried about Christians (maybe a LDS knocking on your door can be a little annoying ;).) I'm not worried about Buddhist, Shinto(ist?), etc --- but I am worried about Islam ----because I live in the present.

Justin

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I so agree with you here. People who mention the crusades as a justification of Islamic fear of the West (900 years ago!) - not that it was intentionally raised here in that context - often fail to mention the Islamic wars of expansion and invasions of Europe.

Another part of the puzzle that has not been raised - and its a big one- is the West's support of Israel. How should that one be worked out?

Actually the fellows knocking on my door in white shirts and ties have always been very polite and easy to deal with.

Jordan

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Originally Posted by jaegerhund

As LX mentioned that Americans bringing up the "we saved your ass" thing is getting old, people bringing up Christianity's bad history is getting old as well --- we all know about the crusades, etc and all the atrocities -- what does this have to do with the present day Islamic situation ------ is this some type of justification?

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Nono absolutely not.
I just used wanted to make clear that ANY religion that aquires political power goes evil.

Currently, there is a big problem with extremist Islam, but the same problem existed with Christianity.
Eventually the Christians lost political power and the problems gradually went away.

I hope the same happens with Islam.
I wanted to underline that the solution does not have to include extermination / nukings / war of the offending parties.

Perhaps I could have explained it a bit more extensive the first time around.
My bad.