Big happenings today here in California. These folks almost make me want to move out of state and for once, Ol' Country Joe got it right...:gth
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl.../MND4V0CRM.DTL
-Pary
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Big happenings today here in California. These folks almost make me want to move out of state and for once, Ol' Country Joe got it right...:gth
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl.../MND4V0CRM.DTL
-Pary
Thats just something else..
Damn hippies were born in the wrong era.
Really disgusting. They just don't get it that the Marines defend the very freedoms these punks propose to exercise...and if we don't let the Marines and other branches recruit, their ranks will dwindle, and then these punks get to live under communist chinese rule.
Semper fi!
"About 60 activists, including a few of the tree-sitters from UC Berkeley's Oak Grove, danced, sang, listened to jazz and drank carrot juice "
Now that's cutting edge reportage!:roflmao
These are the type of people who threatened us with moving to Canada if things didn't go their way politically...I guess Canada ran out of room!?:shrug:
I would've thought having Schwartzenegger
as your governor would have made you move out
of the state.:roflmao Sorry, couldn't resist.
John
No, Canada didn't want them either:roflmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by JMS
I don't think the carrot juice will cure a mental malfunction of this magnitude.Quote:
"About 60 activists, including a few of the tree-sitters from UC Berkeley's Oak Grove, danced, sang, listened to jazz and drank carrot juice as they pitched their tents for the night."
Clearly, nothing less than a wheat-germ enema is called for here!
:eek::roflmao:roflmao:roflmao:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky
It's happening in Chapel Hill/Carrboro too.
These are the same idiots who live in Carrboro and Chapel Hill and spit on the midshipmen and cadets when they're in uniform, and nothing happens to the little :cens.
A few years ago the same American born idiots burned a US flag on the UNC campus and nothing was done to stop them by UNC officials. Now they're protesting an Army recruitment center, saying that it only helps the Iraq war and recruits are 'tricked' into signing up. Give me a break!
There's a reason why I quickly became conservative and military supporting after being surrounded by these heathens.
I was thinking more along the lines of napalm myself and as far as the group sitting in the fenced off grove of oak trees...how about some really pissed off gorillas? See if the hippies can bond with nature and live amongst the wild animals...:hmmm:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky
-Pary
Mission Statement:
"CODEPINK is a women-initiated grassroots peace and social justice movement working to end the war in Iraq, stop new wars, and redirect our resources into healthcare, education and other life-affirming activities. We reject the Bush administration's fear-based politics that justify violence, and instead calls for policies based on compassion, kindness and a commitment to international law. With an emphasis on joy and humor, CODEPINK women and men seek to activate, amplify and inspire a community of peacemakers through creative campaigns and a commitment to non-violence."
As you can see above this is the mission statement of CODEPINK. These people were at the rally at Berkley and are delusional. My favorite part of there mission statement is the part where they are going to try to prevent future wars. I hope one day they wake up from their lollipop, marshmallow cloud fantasy land.
I've never understood the American attitude to this sort of thing, it's very different in the UK.
There are plenty of UK citizens opposed to the war in Iraq but I can't imagine any of them demonstrating against or even criticizing the members of our armed forces who are fighting. It's not a soldier's choice after all, they are merely doing what their country has asked of them. An anti-war campaign which picked on our soldiers would do themselves a great deal of damage in this country.
On the other hand, it would be very unusual for anybody to accuse someone opposed to the war of being un-patriotic, treasonous or so forth - something which seems to happen all the time in the US. It's perfectly possible to believe that a war is not in the best interests of your country and whilst you might be wrong that doesn't make you a traitor.
Respect your armed forces - they don't chose which wars to fight it's the politicians who do that so save your ire for them.
Respect those who oppose any particular war - at least they are prepared to stand up for what they believe in and they are trying to do the right thing (whether misguided or not).
Nicely presentedQuote:
Originally Posted by trewornan
Precisely why I suggested they needed a "wheat-germ brain rinse".Quote:
Originally Posted by trewornan
Protesting a political decision by criticizing the military forces is pointless and not too bright. It's a sad reflection on that particular group's logical thinking process.
Yeah, nice post, trewornan.
You're commenting on what the extremists on both sides of the issue do. For the most part, I strongly dislike hippies and their carrot juice drinking ways. Someone wrote a line above about them burning their own flag, which is a disgusting offense. I agree that you have to support your troops, since they're the ones who protect your country. It's annoying how you see people these days wiping tears from their eyes on Remembrance Day when they see the WWII vets, and yet they'll openly disrespect the modern day soldiers, as though one war made more sense than the other. All war is senseless; soldiers are appointed to try and restore sensibility in some capacity. And as you and the others have said, the soldiers don't pick their wars - they just fight 'em.
Similarly, I don't like the people who are the extreme opposite of the Berkley people. Those who try so hard to be "patriotic," they become ignorant and bigoted. Or maybe they just happened to be raised in a house with those kinds of attitudes and didn't have any choice in the matter. The people who'll tell you they will never change the way they'll vote in any election - future candidates they'll likely vote for haven't even formed their political opinions yet, or been born in some cases, but if they're "the most right", in this person's eyes, they are right - in the "correct" sense this time.
I've never understood this either. I know that if you showed any of my friends a video of someone burning a Union Jack all you'd get is a shrug. Why on earth would anybody care?Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade Wielder
This is interesting ---- How would British citizens have reacted 100 -200 years ago? How would British citizens have reacted when the concept of never letting the sun set on the British Empire was the philosophy of the day? I just can't imagine people not caring about the Union Jack being disgraced in some way during this period. I'm just curious.Quote:
Originally Posted by trewornan
As far as being offended by the burning of a national flag ---I just can't imagine this being something uniquely American. But I suppose the most powerful nation the world has ever known might take itself a little seriously sometimes ;).
Justin
Well obviously I'm a product of my times and can't answer for previous generations but you're probably right, attitudes were very different in 1908 or 1808. Still I think it's a sign of social advance rather than anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaegerhund
I've never personally been offended by the burning of the flag. According to the US legal code the prefered method of disposing of a flag is by burning.
Not that very many places follow the flag codes.
I guess my point is I think it might be a sign of position in the world --- When the Brits were THE power, they protected that image more then maybe the present generations do ---. If and when the U.S. is no longer the powerhouse that it is, then we probably won't show such signs of national pride either. I'm just thinking here.Quote:
Originally Posted by trewornan
From my perspective, it is difficult to imagine someone not being offended by burning a national flag or any other national symbol. I personally wouldn't burn another nation's flag let alone my own ---- if this is something that can be labeled as "American", then I am a little prouder for knowing it.
Justin
It's not the action that is offensive, it's the intent. Burning a flag for disposal in some honorary procedure (maybe akin to a Viking funeral pyre) is not offensive -- but burning as a sign of destroying the nation in effigy is a different story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickelking
Justin
I managed to resist for a while but now I can't help saying something I know will be contentious:Quote:
Originally Posted by jaegerhund
I've got to point out that for all the US's vaunted superpower status, the military has managed to get their ass kicked with monotonous regularity in the last 50 years or so.
Begin flamefest . . .
Just to clear something up, burning the
flag is the proper way to dispose of it, but
along with that goes an honorable ceremony
generally done by a Legion Post or other
organization. Going into your backyard or fireplace
to burn a flag to dispose of it would not be the
way to do it.
John
Well I was trying to have a nice discussion without things turning this way --- I was hoping you could add something constructive to what I was saying ---- if not then so be it. I'm not in the mood for starting a flame fest ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by trewornan
Justin
Besides this, there is a certain amount of respect that you show your country, your President or Queen if you will and the soldiers that protect not because they themselves are due respect but for what they stand for even if they do fall short of the mark! for the original ideals and hopes of our forefathers which we should all be working towards instead of throwing a public hissyfit as these code pink people are doing!Quote:
Originally Posted by jaegerhund
Trewornan, much of what you said I agree with but in one area I heartily disagree as I do not believe that apathy and indifference are a sign of advance, instead I view it as a sign of decay!
I tend to agree with this I just don't think it needs to be tied up too much with what are (ultimately) merely symbols.Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
Personally I have very little time for the Queen, but I am aware that is not typical for someone of my nationality.Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
We are none of us perfect - soldiers do overstep the mark sometimes and should be punished when they do, but that doesn't mean the vast majority don't deserve respect.Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
I don't know much about codepink but from what little I do know they seem fairly rediculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
Well you might view it as apathy and indifference but I view it as maturity and sophistication. It's a difficult point though - how would you distinguish between the two?Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
If you are referring to Viet Nam, you must be confusing the military with the politicians (the very same mistake CODEPINK made). The kill ratios were heavily weighted in the United States favor, wasn't even close. We won the vast majority of the battles, the politicians lost that war. I would agree that the politicians got their "asses kicked", not the military by any means or measure. For verification, check the kill ratios in the Iraqi dust-ups.Quote:
Originally Posted by trewornan
I have nearly 3 consecutive combat tours under my belt and would vigorously defend your right to burn any flag you wish. You bring the flag, I'll bring the marshmallows. (Don't forget to bring the Guinness Extra Stout, please.) Likewise you may burn little effigies of me if you wish; those and the flag are both merely symbols.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaegerhund
Express you displeasure using any symbol you wish, I see it as your Constitutional right. At the same time, if I see you flying a national flag over the U.S. flag on U.S. soil, we are going to have a fight. See the difference?
I wasn't questioning it as a constitutional right -- and no one is in a better position than you to judge this --- but it does bother me and I find it hard to believe that it couldn't bother someone. It does bother me as would a burning picture of my mother, a burning Bible, a burning Buddhist temple, a burning Union Jack ,etc. Symbols I suppose ---Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky
Justin
Quote:
Originally Posted by trewornan
I have to strongly disagree with this statement, The united States Military has never had it's ass kicked by any nation. The losses we have suffered were losses at the hands of our own politicians.
Any army will take a beating if their hands are tied by politicians.
The only time in my memory when our military was given free reign was in the first gulf war, It was expected to be a bloody long drawn out battle to get the Iraqis out of Kuwait, and they did it in a matter of hours.
If the politicians would get their heads out of their butts, and allow the military to run the war, it would be equally fast and bloody, but it would be over, and the speed of it would save lives in the long run.
Had we let the military loose in Vietnam, we would have won there too, but instead they were told to bomb rice patties and ignore the real targets, because we didn't want to piss off the enemy.
These code pink idiots are a menace to our society, so I have to hit on them... they are the loud mouthed minority, but our government is giving in to their pressure...:shrug: as far as camping in trees in Berkley goes, I say cut the trees down, they will move.
and the flag burning is a symbolic attack on our country, I'm not really offended when some brainwashed arab does it, especially when said arab lights himself up in the process
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k2...g/FlagBurn.jpg
I however feel that any one in America who chooses to make strong anti-american statements needs to get the hell out.
You're free to disagree with the government, you can hate Bush, or Hillary, but respect the freedom that countless american soldiers have died to give you, respect the flag that they died for.
That's what that flag stands for, the sacrifices made to keep it flying, that's why it's retired in a respectful manner.
Also you should be happy that you haven't seen The USA flex it's true might, It's something I fear we might see if we end up going to war with a nuclear armed Iran...
Of course we might get better mileage from irradiated Gasoline.
Should a terrorist nation attack us, the american people will call for blood in a manner never seen before. Iran is in the crosshairs because of their open support for insurgents, and their strong anti-american attitude. We are not the devil, but if they continue to support our enemies, they will eventually provoke us, and there will be no power on this earth that can protect them then.
I really fear a nuclear armed Iran, not because of what they might do with a bomb... because of how I believe we will retaliate, or how the Isralis will retaliate...
First, I demand some rispek for the carrot juice. This is a beverage as tasty as a goat milk so no aggression against it will stand!!!
OK now let me opine on the ass-kicking - the fact is the superpower US did loose the war in Viet Nam, and it doesn't matter if it was the politicians or the soldiers. The kill-ratios are only one side - you have to take into account the ability to sustain casualties too. I hope this is not taken as disrespect as I don't mean any. My country has had it's period of glory over a thousand years ago but currently its role is marginal at best. And our recent history is full of examples where the soldiers have won all the battles, yet the politicians have lost the wars, so that concept is pretty familiar to me as well.
As far as patriotism goes, one of the first thing I noticed in 2nd grade when we started learning some basic history is that all the battles/wars that were won by my country were 'liberation', while all the ones that were lost were 'invasion' on the other part. Unfortunately when I asked the question nobody was interested to answer it. Many years later in college I lived with a graduating historian, who also had few years of high-school teaching experience prior college. He told me that all the history that is put out for mass consumption - schools, mainstream books, media is propaganda in patriotism. And there are a lot of 'facts' that are just plain lies.
Of course I grew up in communist country, so if you want you can blame it on the commies.
Nevertheless after living in several countries and getting to know closely people from every continent and every major religion, the patriotism on me is a bit lost. People are very similar, every group has their good and bad quirks, just a bit different than the next one. So I just appreciate them for what they are (yes, the french too :) - for example a nice burgundy in my book is something zin, or should I say primitivo, will never come even close to).
Exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky
The intent in firing up the flag is what bothers me too btw. Usually it's done to express displeasure with a certain situation or current administration. That's fine with me, I can't think of any situation where it's been done as a protest to the US as a whole.
Edited to add: I'm wondering if I should comment on the Iran statements. I want to, but I hate getting involved in heavy political debates, especially with people I respect as much as I do Mike, that said I've gotta share my views.
There are several misstatements and quarter truths being said about Iran behind the current fervor for going after them. Looking at what we've done with them from the early 50's and beyond as well as our relationship with Pakistan in the mean time. I can't bring myself to support any attack against them (as things stand now.)
We keep being told that Iran = pre-war Iraq and seem to have forgotten that their religions are fundamentally opposed to each others existence as well as the fact that they've never been able to agree on anything. (sorry, that was hyperbole, I'll stop now.)
So why not burn a Republican Elephant or Democratic Donkey --- or something else -- the flag seems to me to be pretty inclusive --- maybe it's the best way to get attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickelking
I try to put myself in the position of where I might burn the flag ----- and I just can't. Hilary Clinton as president ? No ---- An administration is found responsible for the most terrible of crimes -- maybe mass genocide of millions as in Nazi Germany? No ------ because the flag represents more than an administration or President or dirty deed. I can't see a reason why I would burn the flag without intending to disparage the nation as a whole . I guess I just don't get it.
Justin
Quote:
Originally Posted by trewornan
In matters insofar as trewornan's original claim was that "the military" got their ass kicked. He made a very clear distinction. It is that precise distinction that I was/am addressing and referring to.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
Clearly wrong by any standard.
EDIT: to jaegerhund; I wasn't trying to take you to task, only the concept. I personally find burning any national symbol somewhat distasteful. I would still defend your right to do it though.
Yep, you are correct, he did refer to the US military - my bad.
I think you hit the nail on the head there, you'll get less press by burning something less loved. And if you burn an effigy you may get near the same press but also a visit by the secret service (I'm still trying to figure out why they have the secret part in there.) I agree that it's not a good choice to use the flag, and I as well can't think of any scenario where I'd go to that extreme. But I tend to focus a lot more on the intent than on the act, that's one of the reasons I left the lutheran religion. Of course that's another touchy subject that we can save for another thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaegerhund
My thoughts exacly. I don't see why people are all worked up about flag burning. It's a piece of cloth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky
Bruno, It is what that cloth stands for! A symbol? yes. A piece of cloth? Yes, but in most peoples mind the flag deserves a certain respect because it stands for the principles that a country was founded upon, so when you burn the flag as a protest many people see that you are showing contempt for the ideals and principals that your country was founded upon and that are in the hearts of many! Besides to burn a flag does nothing but cause a serious division and does nothing to solve any problem that may be at hand!
trewornan, I wonder where England, or for that matter, the rest of the world would be if Winston Churchill was too "mature" or "sophisticated" to stand up to Germany in world war 2. I will be glad to do without maturity or sophistication if I had a tenth of the metal that Sir Winston Churchill had! I wonder, does his sort of character still exist in England, or for that matter, any where in the world?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QehNT...eature=related
Pulling out the second world war card is getting a bit old.Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
Whenever someone says something negative about the US I hear at least ONE american pull out the "We saved your ass in WW2" card. I'm getting a bit sick of that.
My grandfather was alive then and I'm sure he's happy that the allies came and helped out. I however wasn't alive and neither was my father. And I'm pretty sure most people on this forum weren't either. So if you weren't there...don't brag about it.
We don't blame modern germans for ww2 neither should modern americans take credit for something they weren't alive to do.
As for the winning the war thing. I don't know any numbers on casualties. But even if those on the VC side were larger I wonder "Is it a matter of numbers to win a war?" And I think not. If it was then the russians would never have won in eastern europe in WW2. They simply threw men into the grinder untill the grinder got clogged. They still won though.
Burning the flag.
I don't get insulted when someone burns a flag. I simply think the person doing it is an idiot. And I think someone who get's insulted by an idiot is close to being an idiot as well.