Thread: Sad, sad sign of the times...

Originally Posted by trewornan

I've never understood the American attitude to this sort of thing, it's very different in the UK.

There are plenty of UK citizens opposed to the war in Iraq but I can't imagine any of them demonstrating against or even criticizing the members of our armed forces who are fighting. It's not a soldier's choice after all, they are merely doing what their country has asked of them. An anti-war campaign which picked on our soldiers would do themselves a great deal of damage in this country.

On the other hand, it would be very unusual for anybody to accuse someone opposed to the war of being un-patriotic, treasonous or so forth - something which seems to happen all the time in the US. It's perfectly possible to believe that a war is not in the best interests of your country and whilst you might be wrong that doesn't make you a traitor.

Respect your armed forces - they don't chose which wars to fight it's the politicians who do that so save your ire for them.

Respect those who oppose any particular war - at least they are prepared to stand up for what they believe in and they are trying to do the right thing (whether misguided or not).

This is interesting ---- How would British citizens have reacted 100 -200 years ago? How would British citizens have reacted when the concept of never letting the sun set on the British Empire was the philosophy of the day? I just can't imagine people not caring about the Union Jack being disgraced in some way during this period. I'm just curious.

As far as being offended by the burning of a national flag ---I just can't imagine this being something uniquely American. But I suppose the most powerful nation the world has ever known might take itself a little seriously sometimes .

Justin

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

This is interesting ---- How would British citizens have reacted 100 -200 years ago? How would British citizens have reacted when the concept of never letting the sun set on the British Empire was the philosophy of the day? I just can't imagine people not caring about the Union Jack being disgraced in some way during this period. I'm just curious.

As far as being offended by the burning of a national flag ---I just can't imagine this being something uniquely American. But I suppose the most powerful nation the world has ever known might take itself a little seriously sometimes .

Justin

Well obviously I'm a product of my times and can't answer for previous generations but you're probably right, attitudes were very different in 1908 or 1808. Still I think it's a sign of social advance rather than anything else.

Originally Posted by trewornan

Well obviously I'm a product of my times and can't answer for previous generations but you're probably right, attitudes were very different in 1908 or 1808. Still I think it's a sign of social advance rather than anything else.

I guess my point is I think it might be a sign of position in the world --- When the Brits were THE power, they protected that image more then maybe the present generations do ---. If and when the U.S. is no longer the powerhouse that it is, then we probably won't show such signs of national pride either. I'm just thinking here.

From my perspective, it is difficult to imagine someone not being offended by burning a national flag or any other national symbol. I personally wouldn't burn another nation's flag let alone my own ---- if this is something that can be labeled as "American", then I am a little prouder for knowing it.

Justin

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

when the U.S. is no longer the powerhouse that it is

I managed to resist for a while but now I can't help saying something I know will be contentious:

I've got to point out that for all the US's vaunted superpower status, the military has managed to get their ass kicked with monotonous regularity in the last 50 years or so.

Begin flamefest . . .

Just to clear something up, burning the
flag is the proper way to dispose of it, but
along with that goes an honorable ceremony
generally done by a Legion Post or other
organization. Going into your backyard or fireplace
to burn a flag to dispose of it would not be the
way to do it.

John

Originally Posted by trewornan

I managed to resist for a while but now I can't help saying something I know will be contentious:

I've got to point out that for all the US's vaunted superpower status, the military has managed to get their ass kicked with monotonous regularity in the last 50 years or so.

Begin flamefest . . .

Well I was trying to have a nice discussion without things turning this way --- I was hoping you could add something constructive to what I was saying ---- if not then so be it. I'm not in the mood for starting a flame fest

Justin

Originally Posted by trewornan

I managed to resist for a while but now I can't help saying something I know will be contentious:

I've got to point out that for all the US's vaunted superpower status, the military has managed to get their ass kicked with monotonous regularity in the last 50 years or so.

Begin flamefest . . .

I have to strongly disagree with this statement, The united States Military has never had it's ass kicked by any nation. The losses we have suffered were losses at the hands of our own politicians.
Any army will take a beating if their hands are tied by politicians.
The only time in my memory when our military was given free reign was in the first gulf war, It was expected to be a bloody long drawn out battle to get the Iraqis out of Kuwait, and they did it in a matter of hours.
If the politicians would get their heads out of their butts, and allow the military to run the war, it would be equally fast and bloody, but it would be over, and the speed of it would save lives in the long run.
Had we let the military loose in Vietnam, we would have won there too, but instead they were told to bomb rice patties and ignore the real targets, because we didn't want to piss off the enemy.

These code pink idiots are a menace to our society, so I have to hit on them... they are the loud mouthed minority, but our government is giving in to their pressure... as far as camping in trees in Berkley goes, I say cut the trees down, they will move.

and the flag burning is a symbolic attack on our country, I'm not really offended when some brainwashed arab does it, especially when said arab lights himself up in the process

I however feel that any one in America who chooses to make strong anti-american statements needs to get the hell out.
You're free to disagree with the government, you can hate Bush, or Hillary, but respect the freedom that countless american soldiers have died to give you, respect the flag that they died for.

That's what that flag stands for, the sacrifices made to keep it flying, that's why it's retired in a respectful manner.

Also you should be happy that you haven't seen The USA flex it's true might, It's something I fear we might see if we end up going to war with a nuclear armed Iran...
Of course we might get better mileage from irradiated Gasoline.
Should a terrorist nation attack us, the american people will call for blood in a manner never seen before. Iran is in the crosshairs because of their open support for insurgents, and their strong anti-american attitude. We are not the devil, but if they continue to support our enemies, they will eventually provoke us, and there will be no power on this earth that can protect them then.
I really fear a nuclear armed Iran, not because of what they might do with a bomb... because of how I believe we will retaliate, or how the Isralis will retaliate...

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

I guess my point is I think it might be a sign of position in the world --- When the Brits were THE power, they protected that image more then maybe the present generations do ---. If and when the U.S. is no longer the powerhouse that it is, then we probably won't show such signs of national pride either. I'm just thinking here.

From my perspective, it is difficult to imagine someone not being offended by burning a national flag or any other national symbol. I personally wouldn't burn another nation's flag let alone my own ---- if this something that can be labeled as "American", then I am a little prouder for knowing it.

Justin

Besides this, there is a certain amount of respect that you show your country, your President or Queen if you will and the soldiers that protect not because they themselves are due respect but for what they stand for even if they do fall short of the mark! for the original ideals and hopes of our forefathers which we should all be working towards instead of throwing a public hissyfit as these code pink people are doing!

Trewornan, much of what you said I agree with but in one area I heartily disagree as I do not believe that apathy and indifference are a sign of advance, instead I view it as a sign of decay!

Originally Posted by JMS

Besides this, there is a certain amount of respect that you show your country,

I tend to agree with this I just don't think it needs to be tied up too much with what are (ultimately) merely symbols.

Originally Posted by JMS

your President or Queen if you will

Personally I have very little time for the Queen, but I am aware that is not typical for someone of my nationality.

Originally Posted by JMS

and the soldiers that protect not because they themselves are due respect but for what they stand for even if they do fall short of the mark!

We are none of us perfect - soldiers do overstep the mark sometimes and should be punished when they do, but that doesn't mean the vast majority don't deserve respect.

Originally Posted by JMS

instead of throwing a public hissyfit as these code pink people are doing!

I don't know much about codepink but from what little I do know they seem fairly rediculous.

Originally Posted by JMS

I do not believe that apathy and indifference are a sign of advance, instead I view it as a sign of decay!

Well you might view it as apathy and indifference but I view it as maturity and sophistication. It's a difficult point though - how would you distinguish between the two?

"How would British citizens have reacted when the concept of never letting the sun set on the British Empire was the philosophy of the day? I just can't imagine people not caring about the Union Jack being disgraced in some way during this period. I'm just curious."

I would think that during those time the average British Citizen wouldn't of had an opinion - it would have been the preseve of the ruling 1%.

In terms of modern conflicts - I would regard it as odd if the average subject held the military responsible for the wars that are being fought.

Soldiers simply follow their leaders. Protest where it exists tends to be political.