Thread: Sad, sad sign of the times...

Originally Posted by trewornan

I managed to resist for a while but now I can't help saying something I know will be contentious:

I've got to point out that for all the US's vaunted superpower status, the military has managed to get their ass kicked with monotonous regularity in the last 50 years or so.

Begin flamefest . . .

If you are referring to Viet Nam, you must be confusing the military with the politicians (the very same mistake CODEPINK made). The kill ratios were heavily weighted in the United States favor, wasn't even close. We won the vast majority of the battles, the politicians lost that war. I would agree that the politicians got their "asses kicked", not the military by any means or measure. For verification, check the kill ratios in the Iraqi dust-ups.

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

It's not the action that is offensive, it's the intent. Burning a flag for disposal in some honorary procedure (maybe akin to a Viking funeral pyre) is not offensive -- but burning as a sign of destroying the nation in effigy is a different story.

Justin

I have nearly 3 consecutive combat tours under my belt and would vigorously defend your right to burn any flag you wish. You bring the flag, I'll bring the marshmallows. (Don't forget to bring the Guinness Extra Stout, please.) Likewise you may burn little effigies of me if you wish; those and the flag are both merely symbols.

Express you displeasure using any symbol you wish, I see it as your Constitutional right. At the same time, if I see you flying a national flag over the U.S. flag on U.S. soil, we are going to have a fight. See the difference?

Originally Posted by Sticky

I have nearly 3 consecutive combat tours under my belt and would vigorously defend your right to burn any flag you wish. You bring the flag, I'll bring the marshmallows. (Don't forget to bring the Guinness Extra Stout, please.) Likewise you may burn little effigies of me if you wish; those and the flag are both merely symbols.

Express you displeasure using any symbol you wish, I see it as your Constitutional right.

I wasn't questioning it as a constitutional right -- and no one is in a better position than you to judge this --- but it does bother me and I find it hard to believe that it couldn't bother someone. It does bother me as would a burning picture of my mother, a burning Bible, a burning Buddhist temple, a burning Union Jack ,etc. Symbols I suppose ---

Justin

First, I demand some rispek for the carrot juice. This is a beverage as tasty as a goat milk so no aggression against it will stand!!!

OK now let me opine on the ass-kicking - the fact is the superpower US did loose the war in Viet Nam, and it doesn't matter if it was the politicians or the soldiers. The kill-ratios are only one side - you have to take into account the ability to sustain casualties too. I hope this is not taken as disrespect as I don't mean any. My country has had it's period of glory over a thousand years ago but currently its role is marginal at best. And our recent history is full of examples where the soldiers have won all the battles, yet the politicians have lost the wars, so that concept is pretty familiar to me as well.

As far as patriotism goes, one of the first thing I noticed in 2nd grade when we started learning some basic history is that all the battles/wars that were won by my country were 'liberation', while all the ones that were lost were 'invasion' on the other part. Unfortunately when I asked the question nobody was interested to answer it. Many years later in college I lived with a graduating historian, who also had few years of high-school teaching experience prior college. He told me that all the history that is put out for mass consumption - schools, mainstream books, media is propaganda in patriotism. And there are a lot of 'facts' that are just plain lies.
Of course I grew up in communist country, so if you want you can blame it on the commies.

Nevertheless after living in several countries and getting to know closely people from every continent and every major religion, the patriotism on me is a bit lost. People are very similar, every group has their good and bad quirks, just a bit different than the next one. So I just appreciate them for what they are (yes, the french too - for example a nice burgundy in my book is something zin, or should I say primitivo, will never come even close to).

Originally Posted by trewornan

...
I've got to point out that for all the US's vaunted superpower status, the military has managed to get their ass kicked with monotonous regularity in the last 50 years or so.
...

Originally Posted by gugi

...
OK now let me opine on the ass-kicking - the fact is the superpower US did loose the war in Viet Nam, and it doesn't matter if it was the politicians or the soldiers.
...

In matters insofar as trewornan's original claim was that "the military" got their ass kicked. He made a very clear distinction. It is that precise distinction that I was/am addressing and referring to.

Clearly wrong by any standard.

EDIT: to jaegerhund; I wasn't trying to take you to task, only the concept. I personally find burning any national symbol somewhat distasteful. I would still defend your right to do it though.

Yep, you are correct, he did refer to the US military - my bad.

Originally Posted by Sticky

Express you displeasure using any symbol you wish, I see it as your Constitutional right. At the same time, if I see you flying a national flag over the U.S. flag on U.S. soil, we are going to have a fight. See the difference?

Exactly!

The intent in firing up the flag is what bothers me too btw. Usually it's done to express displeasure with a certain situation or current administration. That's fine with me, I can't think of any situation where it's been done as a protest to the US as a whole.


Edited to add: I'm wondering if I should comment on the Iran statements. I want to, but I hate getting involved in heavy political debates, especially with people I respect as much as I do Mike, that said I've gotta share my views.

There are several misstatements and quarter truths being said about Iran behind the current fervor for going after them. Looking at what we've done with them from the early 50's and beyond as well as our relationship with Pakistan in the mean time. I can't bring myself to support any attack against them (as things stand now.)

We keep being told that Iran = pre-war Iraq and seem to have forgotten that their religions are fundamentally opposed to each others existence as well as the fact that they've never been able to agree on anything. (sorry, that was hyperbole, I'll stop now.)

Originally Posted by Nickelking

Exactly!

The intent in firing up the flag is what bothers me too btw. Usually it's done to express displeasure with a certain situation or current administration. That's fine with me, I can't think of any situation where it's been done as a protest to the US as a whole.

So why not burn a Republican Elephant or Democratic Donkey --- or something else -- the flag seems to me to be pretty inclusive --- maybe it's the best way to get attention.

I try to put myself in the position of where I might burn the flag ----- and I just can't. Hilary Clinton as president ? No ---- An administration is found responsible for the most terrible of crimes -- maybe mass genocide of millions as in Nazi Germany? No ------ because the flag represents more than an administration or President or dirty deed. I can't see a reason why I would burn the flag without intending to disparage the nation as a whole . I guess I just don't get it.

Justin

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

So why not burn a Republican Elephant or Democratic Donkey --- or something else -- the flag seems to me to be pretty inclusive --- maybe it's the best way to get attention.

Justin

I think you hit the nail on the head there, you'll get less press by burning something less loved. And if you burn an effigy you may get near the same press but also a visit by the secret service (I'm still trying to figure out why they have the secret part in there.) I agree that it's not a good choice to use the flag, and I as well can't think of any scenario where I'd go to that extreme. But I tend to focus a lot more on the intent than on the act, that's one of the reasons I left the lutheran religion. Of course that's another touchy subject that we can save for another thread.

Originally Posted by Nickelking

Exactly!

The intent in firing up the flag is what bothers me too btw. Usually it's done to express displeasure with a certain situation or current administration. That's fine with me, I can't think of any situation where it's been done as a protest to the US as a whole.


Edited to add: I'm wondering if I should comment on the Iran statements. I want to, but I hate getting involved in heavy political debates, especially with people I respect as much as I do Mike, that said I've gotta share my views.

There are several misstatements and quarter truths being said about Iran behind the current fervor for going after them. Looking at what we've done with them from the early 50's and beyond as well as our relationship with Pakistan in the mean time. I can't bring myself to support any attack against them (as things stand now.)

We keep being told that Iran = pre-war Iraq and seem to have forgotten that their religions are fundamentally opposed to each others existence as well as the fact that they've never been able to agree on anything. (sorry, that was hyperbole, I'll stop now.)

I'm not condoning our past, or encouraging a new war, I'm just saying that a nation's political and economic status directs it's actions, and a fundamentalist state (Iran) that by it's very nature hates anyone who is different than them, and has sworn to wipe all nonbelievers off the face of the earth is going to get itself in hot water. especially when many of those nonbelievers are from the great state of Texas...
Iran and Iraq are very different in their politics, but not so much in their fundamental beliefs.

I get worked up over this issue because I am an american. 7+ generations military service in my family, we have fought for this union since before it's inception. and it was founded on principals of freedom and equality. That piece of cloth is more than a symbol, those stripes were painted in my family's blood, and the blood of countless other families. If Islam were to get it's way, we would all convert or die.

England is slowly converting to islam, I dare any Brit over there to display an effigy of Mohammad in public view...(on your own property )
Even more so, display an effigy of Mohammad in a negative light. I dare you!
here, I'll even provide one for you...


France is becoming the same way... put that picture on a T-shirt, and see how long it takes for them to kill you...

If somebody doesn't put a stop to this you will be hearing calls to prayer 4 times a day in arabic, and Westminster Abby will be converted into a mosc.

Americans may be stubborn overbearing, and "unsophisticated" but we will not go down without a fight.

I don't want any war, but personally if they bomb one of our buildings I think we should level one of their cities. If they use a dirty bomb or weapon of mass destruction on US soil, we know where they are from, we know what countries support them, Iran backs every Islamic terrorist group out there financially, and provides them with weapons and supplies.
If a nuclear weapon dirty bomb etc were to be detonated on US soil, I would whole heartedly support the the use of nuclear weapons against Iran. Without the support of Iran, all of the smaller Islamic states would be more complacant, and might actually support peace.

I'm sick of everything having to be politically correct... The free world has been under attack by islamist extremists since the 70's, but it's wrong to admit it, they are waging a religious war, and we are complacent...
What's it going to take to wake the world up?
are the Brits waiting until after they blow up Tower Bridge or the Eye of London?
Ask a muslum what does the Koran say they should do to infidels? define an infidel... They are taking retarded women and remotely detonating them in Iraq as we speak... doesn't that bother you?
We need to cut the head off the snake, but it's not politically correct, because their leaders are religious heads... We can't attack them, they are hiding in Temples. "You can not enter this is sacred ground... please ignore the stockpile of weapons on your way out..." "He's not a suicide bomber... he's using C-4 to have a religious experience" It would be funny if they weren't bent on kiling us...

Once again, I'm sorry to all as this is a subject I usually don't broach, and I wish I hadn't here, but I have to address a few of your points Mike.

Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

...If Islam were to get it's way, we would all convert or die...

...Ask a muslum what does the Koran say they should do to infidels? define an infidel...

I'm not sure if it's in the q'aran or not as I can't remember but the Islam religion considers Christianity and Judaism as brother religions (I can't remember the word they use for it offhand,) even to the point of believing that followers of those faiths will go to heaven, not something they grant them. Granted, there are a few extremists that don't agree with that part of the doctrine, but the state of Iran has made no movements from what I've seen that they are controlled by extremists.

Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

...Iran backs every Islamic terrorist group out there financially...

Iran is Shia and almost every terrorist group out there is Sunni (As are those we oppose in Iraq.) The two have been warring for many centuries, I have trouble believing claims that Iran is supporting therm.

Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

...I dare any Brit over there to display an effigy of Mohammad in public view...

If I were to put up a similar effigy of Jesus in my yard here in America I would expect a similar reaction.

Originally Posted by Mike_ratliff

...I don't want any war, but personally if they bomb one of our buildings I think we should level one of their cities...

I agree wholeheartedly.


Edited to add this disclosure (as religion has become a topic in this thread:) I am not a Muslim a Jew a Christian a Buddhist or anything else defined by a cookie cutter word. A religion is a personal thing based on what someone personally believes and I am a mixmash of at least 8 different religions resulting in my own personal religion based strictly on what I believe.