Thread: What do you know about Ethanol?

Mark's Global Warming thread made me think about this. What do you know about ethanol as a viable fuel source? Just start a discussion.

Justin

Sugarcane based ethanol = good
Corn based ethanol = bad


BUT this is more an issue of politics then science IMHO

I think any crop based ethanol is a bad solution. This requires growing edible crops for fuel. It doesn’t much make sense to me. Besides, the amount of crop would require tremendous amounts of fertilizer which are petroleum based.

Why not reduce fuel instead of looking for new sources?

Originally Posted by DSailing

I think any crop based ethanol is a bad solution. This requires growing edible crops for fuel. It doesn’t much make sense to me. Besides, the amount of crop would require tremendous amounts of fertilizer which are petroleum based.

Why not reduce fuel instead of looking for new sources?

I'm more along these lines. Engines can be so much more efficient in what they do without losing much performance (if any at all). I expect that the new research that is going into the Formula 1 cars will blow this wide open, leading the way to hybrid car efficiency but still 100% gasoline.

Something I think needs to be looked into more is fuels from waste or byproducts. Wouldn't it be fantastic if we could take all that landfill waste and convert it into something we could run our cars on. There is currently a company that has a process for doing just this, but it's still in its very expensive, time consuming infancy. I think this is one of the best solutions because it fixes two constants- the constant need for fuel and the constant production of waste.

Have to agree with DSailing on this one.

Look at grain prices already and we are just at the beginning of the ethanol boom. Even beer is more expensive because of the increase in Ethanol production. I'd rather walk and eat than starve while driving.

Not to mention that Ethanol is a poor fuel source just from an output standpoint. It id far less efficient than petrol.

I do like biodiesel though mostly because it takes a waste product an makes it usable. Plus think of the increase in glycerin soap production, could bring the prices down

According to this news release:

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2007/ethanol.html

the energy balance of corn-produced ethanol is quite close, meaning that whether it's a win (more energy out than went into its production) or a loss (the other way around, duh) depends on the details of its production. Here's an excerpt from the above page:

Does using corn-based ethanol in place of gasoline actually make energy consumption and emissions go up, as some researchers claim? Why do others reach the opposite conclusion? And how much better would ethanol from "cellulosic" feedstocks such as switchgrass be?
To answer those questions, Tiffany A. Groode, a graduate student in MIT's Department of Mechanical Engineering, performed her own study, supervised by John B. Heywood, Sun Jae Professor of Mechanical Engineering.


Using a technique called life cycle analysis, she looked at energy consumption and greenhouse gas emissions associated with all the steps in making and using ethanol, from growing the crop to converting it into ethanol. She limited energy sources to fossil fuels. Finally, she accounted for the different energy contents of gasoline and ethanol. Pure ethanol carries 30 percent less energy per gallon, so more is needed to travel a given distance.
While most studies follow those guidelines, Groode added one more feature: She incorporated the uncertainty associated with the values of many of the inputs. Following a methodology developed by recent MIT graduate Jeremy Johnson (Ph.D. 2006), she used not just one value for each key variable (such as the amount of fertilizer required), but rather a range of values along with the probability that each of those values would occur. In a single analysis, her model runs thousands of times with varying input values, generating a range of results, some more probable than others.


Based on her "most likely" outcomes, she concluded that traveling a kilometer using ethanol does indeed consume more energy than traveling the same distance using gasoline. However, further analyses showed that several factors can easily change the outcome, rendering corn-based ethanol a "greener" fuel.

This article (from the MIT News Office) concludes with the note that the research was funded by BP America, and the following pointer for downloading the actual report, from the MIT Laboratory for Energy and the Environment (LFEE):

A report on Groode's work, titled "Review of Corn Based Ethanol Energy Use and Greenhouse Gas Emissions," can be downloaded at lfee.mit.edu/metadot/index.pl?id=2234.

That's what good Google and 2 minutes did.

Dale

Don’t me wrong, I don’t agree with ethanol, but long term petrol use is unsustainable too. I just don’t see the need to burn food for fuel. I do like the idea of waste or methane, but I think the best solution is reduction. I use solar panels and a wind generator, but these even take petrol in order for creation not to mention the batteries, but I try to reduce my electrical and fuel consumption. I only use lights when needed, ride my bike when feasible, etc…

interesting study. But the stuff will be sold by the gallon. If they are the same price I'd buy the gallon of gas because it will take my car further thats where my involvement in the process ends.

Actually this reminds me of the debate when Mcdonalds had to switch from foam containers to paper. Even though it costs so much less the recycle the foam, while the paper can't be reused they were forced to switch in order to be seen as "environmentally friendly". Thats why I fear we will be stuck driving inefficient corn cars rather than more efficient gas ones (gotta be PC). Perception having more force than reality or facts.

We've got it mixed with standard unleaded over here - this blended fuel is somewhere in the order of 5 cents per litre cheaper than regular unleaded, I think. I asked a couple of friends who are mechanics about whether I could put it in my lawnmower and they recommended against it

I thought I read or heard somewhere that grain-based fuel would require too much land to be given over to it to make it viable as a stand-alone solution. Personally I like the sound of hydrogen, but apparently it takes a bit of energy to create that too - I don't want to highjack Justin's thread, but does anyone know if that is true?

James.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

We've got it mixed with standard unleaded over here - this blended fuel is somewhere in the order of 5 cents per litre cheaper than regular unleaded, I think. I asked a couple of friends who are mechanics about whether I could put it in my lawnmower and they recommended against it

I thought I read or heard somewhere that grain-based fuel would require too much land to be given over to it to make it viable as a stand-alone solution. Personally I like the sound of hydrogen, but apparently it takes a bit of energy to create that too - I don't want to highjack Justin's thread, but does anyone know if that is true?

James.

Hi-jack away --- just keep with the basic "alternative fuels -- bogus or what?" feel of the thread.

Justin