Thread: Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English

Originally Posted by Wildtim

I actually didn't get a job as a landscaper because I didn't speak Spanish.

Perhaps you should learn some Spanish.

Spanish is the official language for much of Tulsa. Here it's more convenient for an English speaker to pick up Spanish than it is for a Mexican to pick up English.

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Spanish is the official language for much of Tulsa. Here it's more convenient for an English speaker to pick up Spanish than it is for a Mexican to pick up English.

I agree with your statement and this is what worries me. Apologists for illegals always seem to raise the point that the US was built by immigrants, etc. And yes the first generation may not have spoke English and they lived in some isolation - Little (insert nation here) in the large cities, BUT future generations had to learn English and assimilate to some degree in order to live the American Dream and their parents pushed them to do that. Now, it seems some are trying to say its OK not to assimilate. So then you'll have pockets where you have to speak Spanish or Vietnamese or Hatian, etc. That is not what built this country.

Oh, the scale is also completely different from the past. I saw a documentary recently talking about how some 5 million Irish came here between 1600 and the 1920s (or something like that). 5 million is nothing compared to the waves we see today.

You can assimilate and still maintain your heritage. Ugh, this topic is giving me agida!

Right, so we're finally at the source of contention. It's not the language, that's bothering people, it's the money. The lower economic class of US citizens do not want to compete successfully with the immigrants (legal and illegal) because they do not want to lower their standard of living. On the other hand the more enterpreneural US citizens are quite happy to decrease their cost of operation by hiring this cheaper labor.

I imagine that they way things got here was that a not so long ago there were more 'better' jobs available to americans which are now gone because they have been outsourced. But that's just the way things work as the world becomes increasingly globalized. I suppose that americans can take back the landscaping and lettuce picking type of jobs, and these positions may even get a slight pay increase, but this is still only getting ahead from being unemployed.

The way I understand it, the american dream is not moving from an IT consultant to landscaper - it is more like moving from IT consultant to a sucessfull IT consulting business owner.
Everybody wants to give examples of highly sucessful stories, but in reality there are much fewer sucesses than there are failures. Bill Gates built an empire from winning a contract with IBM, but Henry Ford failed over and over and over again.

I find it a bit dishonest to put the blame on the immigrants. Yes the illegal immigrants are breaking the law by crossing the border, yet somehow to me this seems like shifting the burden of protecting a country's border from that country onto its neighbors. As far as border towns turning from english-speaking to spanish-speaking - is this worse than another alternative 'ghost towns'?

In any case, back to the 'requirement' of immigrants learning english - as you may have guessed I would favor market oriented approach. The majority of this country speaks english and if one day that becomes spanish, or chinese, to me that would only mean that those people were economically and demographically more viable than the rest, and then that's how it should be.

In any case it seems to me that the current economic problems of US have very little to do with legal and illegal immigrants. And my understanding is that in historical plan, the numbers as fraction of the population are not too high - a higher fractions have been sucessfully integrated in the past.

I myself am not putting the blame on the immigrant, I put the blame squarely where it belonged, on the big money people who want something for nothing and they want it out of my pocket.

Originally Posted by gugi

In any case it seems to me that the current economic problems of US have very little to do with legal and illegal immigrants. And my understanding is that in historical plan, the numbers as fraction of the population are not too high - a higher fractions have been sucessfully integrated in the past.

Sarcastically, I say "True". At one time, we were 100% immigrants.

Originally Posted by ScottS

Sarcastically, I say "True". At one time, we were 100% immigrants.

Not really. There are a lot of US citizens of native American Indian ancestry including myself.

Originally Posted by gugi

Right, so we're finally at the source of contention. It's not the language, that's bothering people, it's the money.

The source of contention (for me) is the lack of respect for the laws, language, customs, and common practices of the US by people who want to live in the US

Originally Posted by gugi

Right, so we're finally at the source of contention. It's not the language, that's bothering people, it's the money. The lower economic class of US citizens do not want to compete successfully with the immigrants (legal and illegal) because they do not want to lower their standard of living. On the other hand the more enterpreneural US citizens are quite happy to decrease their cost of operation by hiring this cheaper labor.

Hi again.
I think this is a bit of oversimplification. It is just one facet of many. The jobs being done by illegal aliens are typically paid under the table at rates that an employer would not legally be able to pay a citizen. Sure it is illegal that the employers are hiring illegal aliens and paying them less than minimum wage. Unfortunately there is so little enforcement against the employers that actual citizens essentially need not apply. Many say these are jobs Americans won't do, but this simply isn't true. Many of the jobs formerly occupied by Americans (high school students, laborers, even more skilled trades) are now filled instead by illegal, off the books employees, who do not "live" here, but share an apartment with 20 other men. So, the effect is compound. Rental prices in such areas are artificially high, because even a high rent divided by 30 is cheap-therefore regular families can afford less and less; teens who would have been working a summer job putting shingles on houses or mowing lawns-are now called lazy and unwilling to work, when in reality, they cannot compete with an illegal alien with 30 years experience willing to do it cheaper than the employer is allowed to hire them(the legal citizen) at. I'm not proposing the minimum wage be dropped, but that the employers be taken to task. I also say illegal alien, because, in many cases they have no intent of living here, which is why they split apartments 30 ways. The money goes back to (Mexico/Guatemala/wherever).

Originally Posted by gugi

I imagine that they way things got here was that a not so long ago there were more 'better' jobs available to americans which are now gone because they have been outsourced. But that's just the way things work as the world becomes increasingly globalized. I suppose that americans can take back the landscaping and lettuce picking type of jobs, and these positions may even get a slight pay increase, but this is still only getting ahead from being unemployed.

This is a different topic, perhaps, but it would be a good one I think. The outsourcing of jobs has nothing, however, to do with those here speaking the language or even people coming here illegally to take advantage of what others have paid for (although a bit tongue in cheek, one could say this is actually becoming the new "American dream" only it doesn't actually involve Americans). Outsourcing is just another way for employers who have become global corporations to skirt labor laws. Personally, while things would be a bit more expensive, I think that people should be paid fair wages for fair work. If a shoe company or (just about any company in China) wants to have 12 year old slave girls make its shoes (or insert other product here...) for $0.15 per hour, then I feel that company's products should be penalized so as to cost exactly the same as if they had paid the employees minimum U.S. wages. I believe in the market, etc. but we cannot sit here and complain about child labor, slavery, etc etc. here in the US then by default support such activities in other countries by allowing corporations to use slave (or *almost*) labor to make their products more competitive against companies which do not support such activities. I also feel that if a foreign company does pay its workers fairly, that should be taken into account and their products should receive less restrictions, IMHO. The global market is only a free market if everyone is playing by similar rules; if we require things of an American company in order to allow them to sell their product to us, the same should apply to foreign, and nominally American(but not) global corporations, as well.

Originally Posted by gugi

The way I understand it, the american dream is not moving from an IT consultant to landscaper - it is more like moving from IT consultant to a sucessfull IT consulting business owner.
Everybody wants to give examples of highly sucessful stories, but in reality there are much fewer sucesses than there are failures. Bill Gates built an empire from winning a contract with IBM, but Henry Ford failed over and over and over again.

This is true to a point, especially wrt. the failures involved. It seems too often people miss this part.

Originally Posted by gugi

I find it a bit dishonest to put the blame on the immigrants. Yes the illegal immigrants are breaking the law by crossing the border, yet somehow to me this seems like shifting the burden of protecting a country's border from that country onto its neighbors. As far as border towns turning from english-speaking to spanish-speaking - is this worse than another alternative 'ghost towns'?

I will say this. It really disturbs me to see people speaking of illegal aliens as "immigrants". They are not the same thing. An immigrant is just as American as any other in my opinion. An illegal alien is someone who felt it necessary or even appropriate to cheat everyone else doing things legally, jump the line, then in turn cheat others willing to do work legally by undercutting their wages. Illegal aliens may or may not intend to stay here, may or may not have good intentions (there is no difference IMHO between crossing a nation's border at night in a remote location and "infiltrating" that country). It isn't *that* difficult to come here legally, especially for the majority of those who arrive illegally nightly at the US borders-so why did they not wait their turn like everyone else? I lay the blame on much of this on unscrupulous employers as much as I do those sneaking in, but both are attempting to get something for an unfair profit.

Originally Posted by gugi

In any case, back to the 'requirement' of immigrants learning english - as you may have guessed I would favor market oriented approach. The majority of this country speaks english and if one day that becomes spanish, or chinese, to me that would only mean that those people were economically and demographically more viable than the rest, and then that's how it should be.

This I could agree with; however right now the common language happens to be English. It is only sensible that people should attempt to learn it. Above there have been a few posts speaking of older people who had difficulty with the language-unfortunately for this argument, it is almost NEVER the older person who stands in a hospital demanding they only be spoken to in their native tongue. It is younger people, and to be honest, I wish the laws were different and these people could be informed that just across the border they came over, there is a perfectly good hospital waiting for them. After all, haven't we been told again and again by filmmakers and other knowledgeable medical types that Cuba and other countries like that have much better medical care than we? So stop using our tax money and putting our hospitals out of business unless one is at least willing to try. TRY. It isn't too much to ask. I really don't understand why people decry Americans for wanting those newly here to do this. Every nation in the world does this, why should we Americans be the only ones to take it in the shorts.

Originally Posted by gugi

In any case it seems to me that the current economic problems of US have very little to do with legal and illegal immigrants. And my understanding is that in historical plan, the numbers as fraction of the population are not too high - a higher fractions have been sucessfully integrated in the past.

You would only be partially right. Go to San Diego or some other border town. Look at the hospitals that have went out of business. Higher fractions of legal immigrants have been successfully integrated, sure, but we aren't speaking of legal immigration, and the number has lots of zeros on the end of it these days. Legal immigrants are ALWAYS welcome, and are a great contribution to what this country is all about. People who come unlawfully and flaunt the laws of our country show it no respect and, call a spade a spade, they are breaking multiple laws. Demanding (and getting) home loans when citizens can't get them, undercutting wages, artificially inflating the prices of housing, taxing the medical, educational and social security systems...
A real immigrant would not demand to be spoken to in his or her native language, but would endeavor to learn English instead. Five years as suggested above is PLENTY of time, even for the slowest to learn enough English to function; at any rate even elderly etc. coming here to assimilate into society at least should (and do!) attempt the language at the very least. Some may never be fluent but functional is much easier to achieve, after all they put the effort forward to get here in the first place, right? no problem. It is the illegal who gets here, cheating the system and breaking the law from the first step on US soil, who, with no respect to his or her host country, demands also to be spoken to in his or her native language. Like our country, he or she has no use for the language the rest of us use, either.

It is my feeling, however, that regardless of one's opinions on those arriving illegally, people who break the law to get here and or stay here are not going to respect any law about language, either. On the other hand, those who put forward the effort to do things correctly, and respect the country they wish to live in, should IMHO be given a certain amount of time to learn some basic skills in English, and if need be, I'm all for help for those people in learning it, as they have shown the effort to do things right in the first place. Learning "Hello," "Stop" "Help" "Where is the (bank/hospital/grocer etc)" and such does NOT take five years even for an elderly person. Typically however, as above, the elderly person at least tries and is not the one from the hospital example.

One day I'll be able to be succinct with my thoughts...

I promise.


John P.

Originally Posted by JohnP

Many of the jobs formerly occupied by Americans (high school students, laborers, even more skilled trades) are now filled instead by illegal, off the books employees, who do not "live" here, but share an apartment with 20 other men. So, the effect is compound. Rental prices in such areas are artificially high, because even a high rent divided by 30 is cheap-therefore regular families can afford less and less; teens who would have been working a summer job putting shingles on houses or mowing lawns-are now called lazy and unwilling to work, when in reality, they cannot compete with an illegal alien with 30 years experience willing to do it cheaper than the employer is allowed to hire them(the legal citizen) at. I'm not proposing the minimum wage be dropped, but that the employers be taken to task. I also say illegal alien, because, in many cases they have no intent of living here, which is why they split apartments 30 ways. The money goes back to (Mexico/Guatemala/wherever).

Sounds like you're starting to understand where the "living wage" arguments are coming from.

Well as I said things have and always will be about money. American citizens willing to work for less than minimal wages are free to do so as well. They can certainly ship their family in some other country with low standard of living (I'm sure with enough cash flowing from US they won't even need to learn the local language) and then they can share an apartment 50-way instead of 30-way and undercut the illegals.
A couple of states happen not to have minimum wage laws so that would seem doable at least in principle.

Of course US government can institute protectionalist policies as John suggested and send inspections to other countries to monitor the wages, working conditions etc... But what guarantees that the other country would accept US inspections? Another way is to just stop international trade whatsoever - only US produced goods will be allowed to be sold on the US market. That is also not a good solution.
I've seen some people boycotting companies who are deemed immoral. That really is the only way to solve this, but it requires enough people to be willing to voluntarily pay the cost of not purchasing certain products. The mechanism is there, but it's not used, so the result is what we have and that will continue. Just because people are primarily selfish and would like everybody else to pay the cost, while they share in the benefits. I don't think it will change anytime soon.

To my mind globalization is unavoidable and outsourcing is similar to a US company moving to another state where the economic conditions are more favorable, but on a more global scale. I threw in the outsourcing thing just because when the economy was going well and almost every american citizen could get an office job nobody cared that their lettuce was picked from an illegal immigrant. I've given that example before - a friend of mine comes from a farming family in CA and according to his dad those of mexican origin are way way more motivated, hardworking and honest those who speak fluent english. And as far as summer jobs go, I have plenty of college-aged relatives who are working each summer in various low skilled jobs in US and Europe. 16-hour days 7/days a week at a mimimum wage, living in barracks. Of course the few thousand dolalrs they earn from doing that is quite a different thing in where they come from, than where a US citizen will normally spend their money. But that's how it is - the standard of living in various parts of the world is different and both workers and employers can exploit this inequality. Perhaps in the long term the gaps will close a bit, who knows. But I don't think anybody has a good solution where everybody is happy. In such situation I personally would put my bets on being as competitive as I can on a global scale and then I can continue doing what I like to do and not have to compete for the lettuce picking jobs out there (it's not that I haven't done such jobs).

I guess different countries like to do things differently, but going after employers and employees seems rather backwards to me. If you care about your national security you protect your border with military. US has only 2 land borders, most countries have 4. Of course most countries are also more densely populated, but if a state cannot protect its borders it really deserves its neighbors to cross them as they see fit. The US-Mexico border is about 2000 mile long. It seems reasonable to me that 50 soldiers is more than enough to protect each mile, which would require 100 000 soldiers. US has a lot more than that in various foreign countries, which tells me that it's not the lack of personel, but the lack of will that is to be blamed.

So, yes, the illegal aliens are criminals, the people who employ them are criminals as well, but what are the political leaders who have failed to protect the US border? What about the voters who elect them? If memory serves there was at least one presidential candidate who wanted to secure the US border - he didn't seem to enjoy all that much support. The same is true even on a smaller scale of local governments.