Thread: Split from WTC7: Politics / democracy

Some good points there denmason.
With misinformation in abundance one can only assume there are vested interests from all sides.
It is a fact that politicians sometimes lie and that conspiracy theories are just theories. It pays to keep an open mind & trust your gut. Hopefully western democracy will continue without a Big Brotherly interference but I'm sceptical.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Hopefully western democracy will continue without a Big Brotherly interference but I'm sceptical.

What democracy? When was the last time you had an opportunity to vote for a candidate that actually represented your views? In the Unites States, we have an opportunity to vote for a right-wing candidate and one that appears to be a little less right-wing. But, funny thing, no matter who gets elected, the policies don't change.

Much the same in Australia. In spite of several parties running, the preferences always go to 2 main parties.
Both pretty much tarred with the same brush.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Much the same in Australia. In spite of several parties running, the preferences always go to 2 main parties.
Both pretty much tarred with the same brush.

The fact that the political system always seems to narrow down the election to a choice between Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Dum and that politicians come and go but the policies remain the same is part of what makes me think that someone else is in control.

That's partly your own fault. If you don't agree with either of the major 2, then vote 3d party.
But if you stay at home and don't vote, you're part of the problem.

If 3 party candidates would get enough votes to be noticed, the major parties will need to shape up or risk the election of a 3d party candidate.

The major problem to minor players I see is the fact that the electoral college is 'winner takes all' instead of a representation of the voting outcome.
This makes it prety much pointless to vote democrat in some of the southern states like TX.
I know in some states they changed it. And if they change it throughout the US, then a 3d party vote actually has a chance of meaning something.

EDIT: I will split off this side track into a new thread.

Originally Posted by Bruno

That's partly your own fault. If you don't agree with either of the major 2, then vote 3d party.

Bruno, you know a lot more about the US election system than most Europeans but I don't think you realize the extent to which the two-party system is established by law. No third party will ever have a level playing field.

As far as the electoral college is concerned, it only affects the election of the president while the lack of a real choice permeates the entire system.

Originally Posted by Chimensch

Bruno, you know a lot more about the US election system than most Europeans but I don't think you realize the extent to which the two-party system is established by law.

Yes, I know.
But could you elaborate a bit? Because I'd like to know how your system is established by law?

I know that a 3d party candidate is essentially held hostage by congress, and that it is very hard to get senators, governors and congressmen which are not either dem or rep.
But is this a result of law, or just because that's how it is and always was, like the 'no 3 terms' guideline?

Originally Posted by Bruno

Yes, I know.
But could you elaborate a bit? Because I'd like to know how your system is established by law?

It starts with getting on the ballot. The Republican and Democratic parties hold a primary (a caucus in some states) and their candidates are automatically on the ballot, while a third-party candidate has to meet a whole lot of burdensome and expensive qualification tests, such as signed petitions, etc.

Then, third-party candidates have a hard time getting included in media-sponsored debates. Look at what Ron Paul went through and he had a ground swell of popular support.

I hope that someone with more knowledge of the details of getting on the ballot in various states will chime in.

It's a long hard road to get on the ballot. It's also very expensive and there are 50 different ballots, one for each state.Each state has its own requirements for a candidate to make it onto its ballot since the Constitution does not specify the nomination process. Some states allow voters to write in a candidate's name on the ballot. To make this a bit easier to follow, and since I'm just waking up... here's a link with the requirment of each state: US Presidential Write-in Candidate Requirements for each State
I'll go finish my cup of tea now.

Originally Posted by Chimensch

The fact that the political system always seems to narrow down the election to a choice between Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Dum and that politicians come and go but the policies remain the same is part of what makes me think that someone else is in control.

Ideally, I want to live in a free market, anarchist society. Realistically, I suppose I am for an extremely limited federal government. I firmly believe, however, that someone other that the overt political parties are in control. As long as this is the case, I will not see either of the two scenarios I proposed.

Originally Posted by Bruno

That's partly your own fault. If you don't agree with either of the major 2, then vote 3d party.
But if you stay at home and don't vote, you're part of the problem.

I also believe that elections are the ruse of the elite in control, to make the sheepole feel they can make a difference. If you throw in election fraud the power of the vote is utterly destroyed. If I decide to cast a vote on the black box in November or any other time for that matter, I scroll around the screen, push some buttons, and send my little vote down the memory hole. State and county election boards have millions of dollars invested in these electronic voting machines, scores of which have been proven ineffective and easily hackable. The software is private and the votes are counted under a cloak of secrecy, not under the watchful eye of the people as it should be. The corporations who manufacture the machines and count the votes often have vested interests in parties and or candidates as well. Greg Palast and Bev Harris are two people who have done extensive research into the election fraud that is going on here in America, check out their work.

I agree with chimenshc that it is extremely hard for third party candidates to even get on the ballot. On top of that, this time around, I'm not really excited about the Libertarian or the Constitutional party candidates.

OK, I'm done for now.