Thread: Election Season

I couldn't agree more, Xman! There's no reason why the BQ should have 50 seats with 10% of the vote, and the Green party have 0 seats with ~7% of the vote!

Also, this business of having to reconcile the party with your local candidate is problematic - if the party is great, but the local candidate is a loser, do you vote for the party and risk having nothing done in your riding for the next 4 years, or do you vote for a better local candidate of a lesser party?

Mark

PS. I believe crossing the floor to be undemocratic, but I can't see how uniting the left is undemocratic...the right did that when they brought together the Reform Party and the PC Party...

Originally Posted by xman

Actually, until we get proportional representation and upgrade our ancient democracy to join the rest of the world, people will keep talking about undemocratic stunts like uniting the left or crossing the floor instead of getting on with the democratic job of debating the best way forward for all parties involved.

X

Unfortunately the proportional representation that was put forward in Ontario and failed, Mixed Member Proportional (MMP) a hybrid between first past the post and a list system, most likely will never fly with voters. I think most find the list system the big problem with MMP, most voters don't trust a system that is going to be full of political appointees where the voting public has no say in who the parties use to represent them. The other problem with proportional representation is the fact that it is basically impossible for independents to get elected, which two were elected in this last election.

Originally Posted by Milton Man

PS. I believe crossing the floor to be undemocratic, but I can't see how uniting the left is undemocratic...the right did that when they brought together the Reform Party and the PC Party...

It's undemocratic Mark because people are forced to compromise their vote instead of getting what they want to vote for. Contrary to popular suggestion, the Liberal party is not a left of centre party. The New Democrats run their party and their policy much differently and. Canadians shouldn't be forced into a two party system. That turns into a one party system eventually.

Originally Posted by Hutch

Unfortunately the proportional representation that was put forward in Ontario and failed, Mixed Member Proportional (MMP) a hybrid between first past the post and a list system, most likely will never fly with voters. I think most find the list system the big problem with MMP, most voters don't trust a system that is going to be full of political appointees where the voting public has no say in who the parties use to represent them. The other problem with proportional representation is the fact that it is basically impossible for independents to get elected, which two were elected in this last election.

You're mistaken on a few points, Hutch. Party lists would be easy to print for the voters' considerations. Federally, a popular idea is to have regional lists so that the voters are represented by people who should be able to represent them better. And, it is also actually, much easier for independents to win a riding seat under PR. Those two seats would still have been won this month under such a system.

X

Originally Posted by xman

You're mistaken on a few points, Hutch. Party lists would be easy to print for the voters' considerations. Federally, a popular idea is to have regional lists so that the voters are represented by people who should be able to represent them better. And, it is also actually, much easier for independents to win a riding seat under PR. Those two seats would still have been won this month under such a system.

X

Under MMP they could get elected, but there will obviously be less First past the Post seats available so the independents will have lower probability to get elected, and independents will never get to appoint of a list.

The problem I have with the party appointees to the "list" is the lack of trust, these lists will most likely become dumping grounds for old party hacks and re-payment for political favors, much like the Senate.

Even if you know who's on the list that really doesn't help, here's example the third person on party A's list I like, there is no way I would ever want 1 and 2 to hold office, so what are my choices?

It might be somewhat less likely for an independent to get elected, but you must agree that the issues you raise are minor issues compared to the current reality we suffer under with the vote swapping etc. At least with PR you've got the choice. Besides, the research has been done the world over to prove that PR is more representational of the cross section of the population and that citizens are happier with their government and participate more because of it. Besides, better legislation gets passed with minority governments too, more stable well thought out legislation, that won't be thrown out for something equally extreme when the next team gets their unfair majority. The NDP feel that with such a parliament the senate would be useless (like it already isn't) and recommend doing what Ontario and other provincial parliaments have done and simply abolish the upper house and all its patronage. That makes government smaller and more representative all at once!

X

I read some of the reports regarding voter turn out and such, and I wasn't really swayed that much by it. Most the info that I saw basically just told of voter turn-out, and didn't show that it increased since switching. Proportional Representation is relatively new and there really was no information regarding long term effects.

The other thing is the grass is always greener some where else, and once the voting system is changed the likelihood of going back is slim to none. I lived in Ontario under NDP rule, and I'm not saying that MMP is bad but, the first red flag is that the NDP thinks it's a good idea. From what I've read on the issue I'm just not sold that is the cure for all that ails us.

There's now been 3 minority Governments in a row, and personally I don't see that changing anytime soon, so MMP isn't going to change that.

The bigger problem is the fact that people are just too lazy to get off their butts and vote. I don't buy the" I don't vote because I'm disenfranchised" either, if that's the case get off your butt go to the poll and decline your ballot. MMP isn't going to change what the parties stand for so I really can't see how it is going to generate voter enthusiasm.

I think the money would be better spent perfecting online voting.

If you have some other sources of info I'd be interested in reading them.

Originally Posted by Hutch

I read some of the reports regarding voter turn out and such, and I wasn't really swayed that much by it. Most the info that I saw basically just told of voter turn-out, and didn't show that it increased since switching. Proportional Representation is relatively new and there really was no information regarding long term effects.

The other thing is the grass is always greener some where else, and once the voting system is changed the likelihood of going back is slim to none. I lived in Ontario under NDP rule, and I'm not saying that MMP is bad but, the first red flag is that the NDP thinks it's a good idea. From what I've read on the issue I'm just not sold that is the cure for all that ails us.

I think you're confusing the NDP with Bob Rae. Virtually ALL other NDP governments have done very well. Remember Mulroney? Remember Harris? Bob Rae was a cake walk compared to those guys.

Originally Posted by Hutch

There's now been 3 minority Governments in a row, and personally I don't see that changing anytime soon, so MMP isn't going to change that.

The bigger problem is the fact that people are just too lazy to get off their butts and vote. I don't buy the" I don't vote because I'm disenfranchised" either, if that's the case get off your butt go to the poll and decline your ballot. MMP isn't going to change what the parties stand for so I really can't see how it is going to generate voter enthusiasm.

Actually it almost certainly will. Once people know their vote will count. When the names on the regional list show up in parliament, people will see their vote having an effect. Virtually every voter will witness this.

Originally Posted by Hutch

I think the money would be better spent perfecting online voting.

If you have some other sources of info I'd be interested in reading them.

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X

Thanks, I really think the only way that it will happen other than forcing down peoples throats (which in its self is not very democratic, Ontario spoke loud and clear that they didn't want it), is if somehow they allow it for one election to allow people to try it.

The other thing is present it in a more detailed way rather than what they did with the Ontario referendum.

The other problem being a gun owner I only have one choice, and I don't see how this will effect it. But I could see that it could have a positive outcome in the liberal socialist bastion of Toronto (I'm relatively liberal but their gun control stance and portraying law abiding citizens as criminals forces me into the Conservative camp).

Education is the way forward for PR with Canadians. Citizens' Assemblies across the country and around the world are recommending it once they can see how it improves representation. Ontario is a great example. People didn't understand it so it was easy to stir up descent by its opposition. Given the kind of media hype we managed for the other federal referendums, it could be quite a big deal. Another reason Ontario didn't pass is because, even though they received 55% of the vote, the threshold was set at 60%. Couple that with lack of information and it becomes easy to let a proposition fail.

One of the simplest ways that MMP helps voters is in the booth itself. Let's say that my favourite riding candidate is running for a party whose platform doesn't look good to me. In a first-past-the-post system I am in a conundrum and must compromise my vote. Under MMP I can calmly support my candidate and my party with my 'regional' vote.

X

I support the First Past the Post voting system for electing members to the House of Commons. It works and it works well. The fourth and fifth parties in Canada can complain about it all they want but at the end of the day Canadians have decided that this is the system they want.

I think you're confusing the NDP with Bob Rae.

Or Glen Clark or Gary Doer or any other NDP leader that managed to bring their province to the edge of total annihilation? I'll vote for the Dippers and their oxymoronic excuse for a fourth party when I can skate on the River Styx.

As for the Left uniting, fat chance. You're talking about a slightly progressive bunch of corporate fat cats with the Liberals and a gang of violent Marxist thugs with the New Democratic Party. Even if they did, in many constituencies it wouldn't make a different because the combined vote wasn't 49% and would have been less given the interesting phenomenon that happened to the combined vote of the Progressive Conservatives and the Canadian Alliance.