Please Help Keep This Person Out Of Washington

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

Lee, do you really believe anyone who is pro-choice is going to "support killing 5 million innocent civilians"?

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I believe they'll support it without realizing that's what it is. Nobody who gets an abortion thinks or at least says they are killing an innocent civilian. The major difference between pro choice and pro life is in determining whether or not that is what is happening

And Scott, why would Obama favor a ban on late term abortions at all? I don't understand his statement about that last night. Why should the woman be stripped of her right to choose at a late term? To me that sounds like something he says is beyond his pay grade

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Originally Posted by ScottS

I'm a bit confused. Didn't Obama say last night that he favored reasonable bans on late-term abortions?

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I didn't post that as anti-Obama, but as what I find to be a very interesting and unique viewpoint on abortion. Personally, I actually hope Obama wins the Whitehouse.

What does the term "late-term" denote?

At what point did YOU become a human being?

Was it only after your birth?

Was it after 6 months in the womb?

Was it after your heart started beating?

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I believe they'll support it without realizing that's what it is. Nobody who gets an abortion thinks or at least says they are killing an innocent civilian. The major difference between pro choice and pro life is in determining whether or not that is what is happening

And Scott, why would Obama favor a ban on late term abortions at all? I don't understand his statement about that last night. Why should the woman be stripped of her right to choose at a late term? To me that sounds like something he says is beyond his pay grade

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Obama, last night:

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With respect to partial-birth abortion, I am completely supportive of a ban on late-term abortions, partial-birth or otherwise, as long as there's an exception for the mother's health and life, and this did not contain that exception.

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Even those who support abortion rights, who don't believe that life begins at conception-- sort of like the Church not all that long ago-- usually draw a line at viability.

Lets wrap sex ed and contraception into this conversation. Frankly, I see abstinence-only sex ed and an anti-abortion platform to be a a bad combo.

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

Lee, do you really believe anyone who is pro-choice is going to "support killing 5 million innocent civilians"?

I hope not because I have yet to meet said person.

My personal beliefs on abortion are that it is an extremely sad process, and is a choice that I don't support in the slightest for the overwhelming majority of the cases. But the alternative of government intervention is wrong on a different level, the woman should have the final say, period. It's her body that's potentially on the line, the situations are far too complex to have a blanket solution applied to them, and it just isn't the right of the government to tell citizens what they can and can't do with their bodies.

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Actually, it is the unborn child's body/life that is on the line, not the pregnant woman's.

And how about a spouse's right to "pull the plug" on their loved one who is most likely going to be a vegetable that will drain money out of their families pockets as well as the insurance company's.

Surely the government should stop those lives from being lost!

Or how about elderly or extremely sick people who want to end life on their own terms, in a respectable manner, rather than drag it out, deteriorating all the way to a pitiful and sometimes inhumane death. I just recently had a relative that battled brain cancer for more than a decade, was showing no signs of improving despite the horrificly painful and arduous surgeries and various therapies to remove/kill the tumors. He was losing his senses (literally), his emotional stability, his physical capabilities, was in tremendous pain 24/7 and wanted to be done with it. His options left everyone in undesirable situations and it's a terrible trajedy that his only choices were a long drawn out decline into a living hell or a handgun. There are just certain things that the government should have no right in banning.

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

I just recently had a relative that battled brain cancer for more than a decade, was showing no signs of improving despite the horrificly painful and arduous surgeries and various therapies to remove/kill the tumors.

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My condolences. My grandfather as well let us know when he was ready to go

The difference though is that your relative wanted to be done with it and you knew that. The only indication the unborn can give about what they want is when they push away the instruments designed to destroy them - I think it is too dangerous and that life is too precious to make the assumption that a woman's right to choose trumps the unborn's right to life. I think you have to make the determination that the unborn does not have a right to life (or the right that the government should protect its life as it would anyone else's) in order to really justify abortion

I don't know how someone having the right to pull the plug on his or her spouse makes any difference to whether or not unborn children have the right to be protected from abortion. And I don't know whether or not the spouse should have that right - to me when it comes to abortion someone has to speak up for the baby. Doesn't DHS take kids away from parents who have been shown to threaten their kids' lives? I support that, and I support the enforcement of the unborn's right to not have its life threatened by anyone including the parents

If I'm wrong that the unborn are people with rights, then I have denied women the support of the right to choose what to do with their own bodies. But if the unborn are people with rights, then God help us. If there is any uncertainty, I'll err on the side of life over choice.

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

I didn't post that as anti-Obama, but as what I find to be a very interesting and unique viewpoint on abortion. Personally, I actually hope Obama wins the Whitehouse.

What does the term "late-term" denote?

At what point did YOU become a human being?

Was it only after your birth?

Was it after 6 months in the womb?

Was it after your heart started beating?

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Under Judiasm, the fetus is considered a full fledged human being when the head comes out. Before that is is considered a very valuable partial life. Talmudically, the killing of a fetus is not punishible by the judicial system as a murderer, but is a sin liable to divine retribution-- between a person and God.

Good review at abortion

Now, perhaps you can tell me why you feel compelled to make YOUR religious beliefs into MY law. Does your religion somehow trump mine??

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Originally Posted by ScottS

Under Judiasm, the fetus is considered a full fledged human being when the head comes out. Before that is is considered a very valuable partial life. Talmudically, the killing of a fetus is not punishible by the judicial system as a murderer, but is a sin liable to divine retribution-- between a person and God.

Good review at abortion

Now, perhaps you can tell me why you feel compelled to make YOUR religious beliefs into MY law. Does your religion somehow trump mine??

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Why is regular old homicide illegal?

Why are there any laws at all for that matter?

And it's not necessarily my religious beliefs that cause me to feel the way I do, but reason and compassion and personal experience.

After seeing the ultrasound of my first child's heart beating at what astouded me to be very early into the pregnancy (the embryo looks pretty much like a grain of rice at that point), it really blew me away.

And to now know the child that I love so dearly. I can put my ear on his chest and hear that very same heart beating now, as it was then.

At what point was he not who he is now?+

Would I not want protection for his life now, or at any point leading up until now, and onwards into the future?

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Originally Posted by icedog

I can't believe that anyone voted for G.W.Bush either. I am frequently disappointed in the actions of human beings. I put voting for Sarah Palin on the same list as staring at the sun, eating broken glass or insulting a waitress before you get your food.

Please people, don't do it. The result will not be very good.

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Oh we could have voted for Al Gore! Great choice there!

Obama and his ilk are race bating punks. Obama has been caught on more lies that you could print on one type written page. This thread is a poor example of a political discussion. You fail to realize that most of the time you are voting for the lesser of two evils because politicians are pretty much of the same fiber. Far left liberals twist the truth just like the far right conseratives.

The money crunch in Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac were caused by Democrats Barney Frank and his gang. To say the Bush caused the financial situation that we are in now, is B.S. It was caused by liberals "social engineering" so that on one would be left behind and not own a $400K home. George Bush has been a disappointment to almost everyone, even the people that voted for him. He should have shoved new banking regulations that were proposed in 2004 down the throats of Congress.

One final word. I am grad to see that the Democrats are the "Disney" party, it is so comforting to know that they can be proud of registering "Mickey Mouse"!:w Hard core lefty response " they are just trying to disenfranchise voters, good move!


Later,
Richard