Meet the Press

Was I the only one surprised that Colon Powell actually came out and stated that he was going to vote for Sen. Obama? Personally, I thought he might vote party lines. From what he said in the interview, it's more about character and composure for him than issues. I'm sure that some people will say Powell is voting color. I disagree for one reason: I'm black and if Obama wasn't concerned with the middle-class and the outsourcing of American jobs but McCain was, I'd vote for McCain. Now I can't say that all Blacks (African-American for you "pc" wack-jobs), but I think Powell is intelligent enough to put race aside. Now the biggest question is, how does McCain deal with this? Does he address this and bring it to the attention of those who missed it, or sweep it under the rug and find an issue that's near and dear to America's heart that he can win with?:gl:

I don't know what McCain can attack Powell on - he is more successful in the military than McCain was (McCain went into politics when he finally realized he was not going to get a star), he is a vet of ground combat in VietNam, and I am sure he is better educated than McCain, Powell having earned his advancement, starting in ROTC, rather than relying on Daddy to get advancement. As far as being surprised, I'm not and - like you - I don't think race has anything to do with it. I had always wondered if Gen. Powell left the White House each day, asking himself "Am I the ONLY sane person in there?"

I Powell had run for the office, I would have voted for him. Intelligent, articulate, reasoned, level-headed, experienced - I think he is one of the top US leaders in the last 25 years.

There's no way McCain can attack it. Powell is one of the most respected men in this country, and it would only make McCain look extremely tacky to try to attack him. He might be voting race, but who can really say otherwise except Powell himself?

I thought this was expected, at least over the last several days. McCain has nothing to gain by attacking Powell and a lot to loose, so I think he'll stick to his initial response, and hope the story dies quickly.
It doesn't appear that this has anything to do with race - the reasoning Powell gave seems quite fitting to him. I think his timing was impecable, as well - at this point it's pretty clear that only a miracle can get McCain to win, so Powell is just trying to regain influence in the party and get back the power from the crowd that Palin panders to. The sooner the republicans return to more moderate and reasonable positions the better for everybody.

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Originally Posted by gugi

at this point it's pretty clear that only a miracle can get McCain to win

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I think that your evaluation is not necessarily correct. There is a lion sleeping on the floor and nobody has yet to look down at McCain's feet. I am referring to the Christian vote. They number 217 million strong and I can tell you that most are silent and unassuming. I think they will vote in large numbers and the vast majority are not going to vote for Obama.

We all heard when Gore ran how he was a shoe in, we all heard how Hillary was a shoe in and of course there was Kerry who was measuring the drapes. I think we all have a dog in the race but if you look at Zogby, the race is neck and neck. We have also found in the past that money will not buy a inaugural suit for big spenders. It is going to be interesting to say the least.

Take Care,
Richard

Well, we'll know in a little over two weeks, but you may want to recheck your numbers, Somehow they don't reconcile with the census.
Both candidates are nominally Christian, so I'd be very interested if you could elaborate a bit more on your argument.

As far as I remember Bush outspent Gore and Kerry, although I don't think the spending was the deciding factor. Hilary Clinton was presumed to get the nomination easily, largely because of the already developed political machine she had, at her disposal, but Obama proved he can run a campaign a whole lot better than her, and then better than McCain, as well.

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Originally Posted by WireBeard

I don't know what McCain can attack Powell on

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Well, Buchanan and Limbaugh certainly found a way.

It wasn't surprising at all to me. The fact is, while Powell is nominally Republican, on some very hardcore issues, he's liberal. I believe that to be the reason he never ran for president on a Republican ticket; he knew he couldn't get the Republican base.

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Originally Posted by Quick Orange

There's no way McCain can attack it. Powell is one of the most respected men in this country, and it would only make McCain look extremely tacky to try to attack him. He might be voting race, but who can really say otherwise except Powell himself?

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Speaking as an outsider for a moment, I can tell you that in Europe, Powell is possibly the most respected (ex)member of the Bush administration.
When he quit I thought he'd rather quit and retain his honor and dignity than stay and milk it for all it was worth.
But then again, even when he was still part of the clan, he was the voice of reason.

As a sidenote, I think that voting party line by default is the most silly thing you can do.
I certainly never do. As soon as you do that, your vote is taken for granted and you become unimportant. Only if they have to win your vote do they care for it, in the same way that cell phone providers will give nice benefits to people making the switch to their network, and not to the people who are already on it.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Speaking as an outsider for a moment, I can tell you that in Europe, Powell is possibly the most respected (ex)member of the Bush administration.

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That's about the reputation he enjoys here as well.

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Originally Posted by gugi

I thought this was expected, at least over the last several days. McCain has nothing to gain by attacking Powell and a lot to loose, so I think he'll stick to his initial response, and hope the story dies quickly.
It doesn't appear that this has anything to do with race.

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I agree. Like Bruno I would say that Powell is one of the more respected ex-members of theBush administration. I dont think it is race related in the slightest. All three (Powell, Obama, McCain) are intelligent men. McCain knows that if he were to attack Powell and start claiming it was a race issue there are more intelligent Americans that would be offended and see that as a racially motivated argument than those who would feel the same as him.

As a slight off-topic, I REALLY hope that Obama wins. Although until the votes come in and he is given the keys I dont believe he will. The polls mean nothing. When asked who they vote for people will often go along with the majority if they dont want the real reasons for their real opinion to be known. When you get into that voting booth its just you and the piece of paper.

My election prediction? A woman will be president in the next 4 years, either because the president dies (McCain) or because he is killed (Obama).

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Originally Posted by sidneykidney

My election prediction? A woman will be president in the next 4 years, either because the president dies (McCain) or because he is killed (Obama).

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That would put Biden in office if Obama was killed. Could you explain?


EDIT: You're not calling Biden a woman are you? Or do you think Biden will also be assasinated and we will eventually get down to Pelosi?

Maybe Pelosi plans on offing anyone who occupies the oval office?:chop:

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING MR KIDNEY??

How will I ever sleep until you answer?

He's only making headlines because he's a general who's on obama's side. Every other general in the country is rooting for mccain.

I do find it interesting that he came out and said that he did it not for obama's stance on the issues, but for his ability to speak/be charismatic/or whatever it was he said. A lot of things can be inferred from that. Powell never liked the Iraq war in the first place, though.

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Originally Posted by crazycliff200843

He's only making headlines because he's a general who's on obama's side. Every other general in the country is rooting for mccain.

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Well duh... :)
Whom would the generals favor: the war hawk who can be depended on to continue the military spending, or the man who is more likely to do the opposite and focus on the economy? :)
No conflict of interest at all. :w

My bad. I was referring to Hilary. I thought she was Obamas vice.

All three, Mc Cain, Obama, Powell are members of the Council on Foriegn Relations, there is no difference between them other than Obama has already been chosen. As I posted elsewhere Mc Cain is like a retiring boxer who will get a bonus for taking a dive in his last fight.

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Originally Posted by sidneykidney

My bad. I was referring to Hilary. I thought she was Obamas vice.

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No, she's one of McCain's vices.

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Originally Posted by nun2sharp

there is no difference between them other than Obama has already been chosen.

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Right. And things would be exactly the same if Gore or Kerry were president now.

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Originally Posted by ScottS

Right. And things would be exactly the same if Gore or Kerry were president now.

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Pretty much

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Originally Posted by ScottS

No, she's <Hilary Clinton> one of McCain's vices.

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I'm confused..... :thinking:

Are you making a pun on the word 'vice'? Or do you know something I do not? According to wiki:

"She was reelected by a wide margin in 2006. In the 2008 presidential nomination race, Clinton won more primaries and delegates than any other female candidate in American history, but after a long campaign, Senator Barack Obama became the party's presumptive nominee in June 2008 and Clinton endorsed him."
Wikipedia, Hillary Rodham Clinton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (my emphasis)

So whats going on here? :shrug:

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Originally Posted by sidneykidney

I'm confused..... :thinking:

Are you making a pun on the word 'vice'?

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Yes (and some padding to make the character limit to post!)

Ooops, thought this was about Palin

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Originally Posted by nun2sharp

Pretty much

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In all likely hood, the war in Iraq wouln't have happened if Bush hadn't been president.
That would have saved the US 3 Trillion dollars, and the loss of face and international goodwill. The dollar mightn't have plunged either.
Quite a big difference I'd say.

Although I have to admit, I favored Gore and Kerry because they were 'not Bush' Perhaps that is also why they lost. Especially Kerry had little else going for him imo. Otoh I favor Obama because he is Obama.
Of the 3 recent dem candidates, he is the one I value highest.

I'm still waiting to see Obama produce credentials proving that he is a natural born American citizen. Without proof he is not in standing to be a candidate let alone be on the Ballot. If he is indeed a natural born American, provide the documentation.

Forgive me, but surely the democratic party wouldnt have selected him as their candidate without checking that first? In fact for that matter, surely if he wasnt American the republicans would have picked up on that and said something already? :thinking:

According to wiki, he is American and from Hawaii,

Barack Obama - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EDIT: Also, non-american citizens cannot BE american politicans. They simply cannot get paid for that job. A background check is done. Thats right, that means Arnie is a US citizen now.

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Originally Posted by denmason

I'm still waiting to see Obama produce credentials proving that he is a natural born American citizen. Without proof he is not in standing to be a candidate let alone be on the Ballot. If he is indeed a natural born American, provide the documentation.

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+1 on what Sidney said.

This is like the debate on whether the moon landing was real or not.
The Russians and the Americans were in a world defining race to be first. They were watching like hawks.
They would have caused an uproar if there was any reason to doubt.
And so would the republicans pounce on Obama if he wouldn't be a natural born American.

Both candidates have entire teams devoted to digging up dirt on the opposition.
If they haven't found anything like what you're suggesting, it is probably safe to say that there is no reason to doubt.

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Originally Posted by sidneykidney

Forgive me, but surely the democratic party wouldnt have selected him as their candidate without checking that first? In fact for that matter, surely if he wasnt American the republicans would have picked up on that and said something already? :thinking:

According to wiki, he is American and from Hawaii,

Barack Obama - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EDIT: Also, non-american citizens cannot BE american politicans. They simply cannot get paid for that job. A background check is done. Thats right, that means Arnie is a US citizen now.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

+1 on what Sidney said.

This is like the debate on whether the moon landing was real or not.
The Russians and the Americans were in a world defining race to be first. They were watching like hawks.
They would have caused an uproar if there was any reason to doubt.
And so would the republicans pounce on Obama if he wouldn't be a natural born American.

Both candidates have entire teams devoted to digging up dirt on the opposition.
If they haven't found anything like what you're suggesting, it is probably safe to say that there is no reason to doubt.

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Check it. Don't be surprised to see McCain throw this down next week. A lawsuit has been filed with the Pennsylvania Eastern District Court requiring Mr. Obama to produce documents to prove he is constitutionally qualified to run for President. So far Mr. Obama has refused to produce the documents and is trying to fight the court order to produce the documents. Any American should be able to prove citizenship in less than a day. Why can't Mr. Obama?

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Originally Posted by denmason

Check it. Don't be surprised to see McCain throw this down next week. A lawsuit has been filed with the Pennsylvania Eastern District Court requiring Mr. Obama to produce documents to prove he is constitutionally qualified to run for President. So far Mr. Obama has refused to produce the documents and is trying to fight the court order to produce the documents. Any American should be able to prove citizenship in less than a day. Why can't Mr. Obama?

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I don't believe Obama would have been received the nomination if he hadn't been thoroughly vetted by a team of dems to make sure that something like this would be real.
There is no way that the dems would allow this nuclear bombshell to be dropped by surprise, because it'd end with the biggest landslide victory for McCain.

If he is fighting this, I'd bet that it is to waste time and money of McCain. There is no reason why he should be cooperative with the Republican Dirt Team.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I don't believe Obama would have been received the nomination if he hadn't been thoroughly vetted by a team of dems to make sure that something like this would be real.
There is no way that the dems would allow this nuclear bombshell to be dropped by surprise, because it'd end with the biggest landslide victory for McCain.

If he is fighting this, I'd bet that it is to waste time and money of McCain. There is no reason why he should be cooperative with the Republican Dirt Team.

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There is every reason he should cooperate. So far he hasn't come forth with the documents. I am not a Republican or Democrat, but I sure want to know. This could lead to some very interesting events happening in America should it be reviled that he is not what he says he is.

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Originally Posted by denmason

There is every reason he should cooperate. So far he hasn't come forth with the documents. I am not a Republican or Democrat, but I sure want to know. This could lead to some very interesting events happening in America should it be reviled that he is not what he says he is.

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I agree it would be an unmitigated catastrophe. Personally I think it would suck bad to have McCain win on a technicality (no matter how important the technicality).
But in this case, he has nothing to win by cooperating immediately.

This way he can keep the Rep Mudslingers occupied.
If McCain should openly attack, he can just say 'Oh here are my papers' and McCain will appear childish and lose more points. Worst comes to worst, there will be a court case, he will show his papers and that'll be it. And he will still be able to put a negative spin on this for McCain.

Perhaps you are someone who cares, but 99.99% of the people will assume that he is American unless he is proven not to.

Aw jeez.....

OK here goes.

The following is taken from the following article:

snopes.com: Is Barack Obama a natural-born citizen of the U.S.?

The minimum qualifications for the presidency of the United States specified in Article II of the Constitution are few and seemingly straightforward: In order to be President, a person must be a natural-born citizen of the United States, must be at least thirty-five years old, and must have been a resident of the United States for fourteen years.

These qualifications aren't quite so straightforward as they might seem, however. For example, what does the phrase "fourteen years a resident within the United States" mean? Can those fourteen years be cumulative, or do they have to be consecutive? Likewise, the "natural-born citizen" requirement is not so straightforward either, because the Constitution didn't define what a natural-born citizen was. (The definition of "natural-born citizen" was left up to individual states to decide until the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868, but even that amendment has been subject to further interpretation.)

What qualifies a person for natural-born citizenship status under U.S. law can be quite complicated, depending on factors such as where the person was born, when he was born, where he and his parents lived, and the nationalities of his parents.

Some of these factors might seemingly come into play in the case of Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama. Although his mother was herself a natural-born U.S. citizen, his father was a Kenyan national, and his parents may or may not have been legally married in the eyes of U.S. law.

A few facets of this claim immediately jump out as being far-fetched: first, that a sitting U.S. Senator who has already spent a good deal of time and money securing his party's nomination for the presidency would suddenly be discovered as ineligible due to an obscure provision of U.S. law; and second, that U.S. law would essentially penalize someone who would otherwise qualify for natural-born citizenship status simply because his mother was too young. The fact is, the qualifications listed in the example quoted above are moot because they refer to someone who was born outside the United States. Since Barack Obama was born in Hawaii, they do not apply to him.

The Fourteenth Amendment states that "all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States." Since Hawaii is part of the United States, even if Barack Obama's parents were both non-U.S. citizens who hadn't even set foot in the country until just before he was born, he'd still qualify as a natural-born citizen.

Some have claimed that Barack Obama's Hawaiian birthplace doesn't qualify him as a natural-born citizen because Hawaii was not yet a state when he was born. This claim is wrong: Hawaii was admitted as the 50th state almost two years before Barack Obama's birth there (21 August 1959 for statehood vs. 4 August 1961 for Obama's birthdate).

Some outdated versions of this item conclude by stating that "It should be demanded that Obama produce his 1961 Hawaiian birth certificate," but in fact his campaign made an image of that document available on the Internet back in mid-2008.

In August 2008, Philadelphia attorney Philip Berg filed suit in U.S. District Court challenging Barack Obama's eligibility for the presidency on the grounds that Obama was actually born in Kenya (not Hawaii) and/or subsequently gave up his U.S. citizenship and thus does not qualify as a native-born citizen of the U.S. Lawsuits over candidates' eligibility are not uncommon: similar lawsuits (none of them successful), for example, have been filed challenging the citizenship status of John McCain (who was born in the Panama Canal Zone), challenging the Wyoming residency status of Dick Cheney (who was born in Wyoming but moved to Texas), and challenging the citizenship status of 1964 Republican presidential nominee Barry Goldwater (who was born in Arizona before that territory was admitted as a state).


:tu

Thanks Sidney. Seems to me this answers the question then.

Also, the lawsuit has been filed by a Democrat.

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Originally Posted by denmason

I'm still waiting to see Obama produce credentials proving that he is a natural born American citizen. Without proof he is not in standing to be a candidate let alone be on the Ballot. If he is indeed a natural born American, provide the documentation.

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I guess you missed this thread

Just to recap, here's something from Obama's website:
http://www.barackobama.com/images/fts/BO_birthcert.jpg

Three quick points:

1. The last Sunday of Sep. I received a draft copy of the judge's ruling in Obama's motion to dismiss the lawsuit that was filed. The judge found sufficient evidence to dismiss Obama's petition and require that he prove his status as a natural-born citizen. He is still delaying.

2. As odd as it may sound, there is no agency that is required to vett any candiadate's status. While a contitutional requirement to be natural-born, no one is tasked to ensure it. Since it has not been an issue except for two candidates who were born in U.S. territories, there is nothing in place to deal with this situation as we see it now, where a candiadate may be foreign-born.

3. Obama provided a certificate of live birth, which is not a birth certificate. Under the laws in Hawaii at the time, all his mother had to do was show up and show paternity (maternity) and that he was actually alive. This is stated in the lawsuit, and the judge found it credible.

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Originally Posted by denmason

Check it. Don't be surprised to see McCain throw this down next week.

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Actually, there are quite the number of folks, including folks serving on the Appeals circuit courts, that think McCain's Canal Zone birth doesn't qualify for "natural born"

Oh, please, tell me we're not still going through this crap. This was put aside months ago. This guy in PA was a Hillary supporter who was part of the "kitchen sink" strategy.

"Certificate of live birth" and "Birth Certificate" are the same thing. My son once had trouble because his proof of birth said "birth registration" and some clueless bureaucrat suggested it wasn't kosher. Fortunately, my wife is an attorney, and I sincerely doubt the idiot will try something that stupid again.

This re-birth of the phony "birth registration" scam smacks more than a little of desperation.

j

Scott, I wonder if it could mean a third term for Bush or at least a prolonged 2nd term?

really now, you guys should find better things to do with your time then dredge up this garbage about Obama's birth. Like with John Mccain the real issues take a back seat to this kind of stuff.