'Tis A Good Week To Be Black

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11-05-2008, 06:46 PM
icedog

Quote:

Originally Posted by jockeys

second page of the thread, and already the ad hominems are flying. nice.

No ad hominem from me. If I had mentioned that your red neck was showing or asked you if you had a rebel flag on your pick up truck perhaps then you could make such a claim. I merely (sarcastically but with a loving spirit) questioned your compassion.

Brad
11-05-2008, 07:45 PM
roughneck

I just wonder if we have really come any farther as a nation to being any less racist. If a man was elected president because it was time to have a black man hold that office and people voted for him because of that then it was still racialy motivated. What I am saying is that maybe he was not elected into office because he was the best person for the job but because some people feel we need a black man to be president to help clear us of our white guilt.
11-05-2008, 08:12 PM
icedog

Quote:

Originally Posted by roughneck

I just wonder if we have really come any farther as a nation to being any less racist. If a man was elected president because it was time to have a black man hold that office and people voted for him because of that then it was still racialy motivated. What I am saying is that maybe he was not elected into office because he was the best person for the job but because some people feel we need a black man to be president to help clear us of our white guilt.

Do you feel "white guilt"? This man brought out more voters than any other candidate in history. That's alot of guilt. I like to think that Barack Obama was the best person for the job and it is a good thing to find the best man for the job happens to be a representative of a large group of some of the most disenfranchised people in our sordid history. Perhaps one day a native American woman may be elected president.
11-06-2008, 01:39 AM
Quick Orange

I think it's really telling the way people speak about Obama. Some, especially the media, really talk up this idea that it's a historic election because a black man was elected president. My question is, how does this help the idea of eliminating racism? The people that are so quick to cry racist are now saying "ha, gotcha! we put a black man in office", instead of "we just put a great leader into office". It's like people voted for him just for the symbolism.
11-06-2008, 02:05 AM
Whiggamore

Quote:

Originally Posted by jockeys

I guess four years ago when Bush and Schumacher won, respectively, it was a good week to be white, huh?

Should I feel proud every time another white person does something good?

Collectivism sucks.

Agreed.

I think this was a good week to be Lewis Hamilton or Barack Obama. I think this was a good week to be an individual.

What do you say after an African election? "It was a good/bad day to be black!"

Don't take me too seriously.
11-06-2008, 03:00 AM
icedog

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quick Orange

I think it's really telling the way people speak about Obama. Some, especially the media, really talk up this idea that it's a historic election because a black man was elected president. My question is, how does this help the idea of eliminating racism? The people that are so quick to cry racist are now saying "ha, gotcha! we put a black man in office", instead of "we just put a great leader into office". It's like people voted for him just for the symbolism.

I wish you could be "a fly on the wall" in my living room last night from 11:30 til about 0100 this morning. To listen to my giflfriend cry on the telephone with her 87 year old great aunt who moved from Georgia to New Jersey. There were several very emotional calls but Aunt Carrie was the best. She was on "speakerphone" so I could hear. This woman was born in 1921 and lived in Georgia through the Jim Crow days. She said last night as she was sobbing that in her entire life she always hoped the black man would rise up but while she never stopped hoping, she never actually believed it would come true. I cried too.

There are of course those who will deny that there is any hate groups that target blacks. There are those who will accept segregation and say the concept of "separate but equal" was fair. It wasn't. This is a great victory for the people of the United States in general but if you understand the great contributions to our country by people like Rosa Parks and Dr. Martin Luther King you cannot deny that this is a remarkably joyous day for the blacks of this country.

This afternoon I had an interesting conversation with the black woman who sent me something that could be considered decidedly racist. She joyously proclaimed that Black is on top! Black is first! . She assured me that it could not have been just any black man to attain this landmark. She told me that if the election was between Joe Biden and Jesse Jackson, she would have voted for Biden.
11-06-2008, 03:09 AM
Ditch Doc

Quote:

Originally Posted by roughneck

I just wonder if we have really come any farther as a nation to being any less racist. If a man was elected president because it was time to have a black man hold that office and people voted for him because of that then it was still racialy motivated. What I am saying is that maybe he was not elected into office because he was the best person for the job but because some people feel we need a black man to be president to help clear us of our white guilt.

Do you really think 349-163 is white guilt? I have been a public servant all my adult life. I have been a Paramedic, an Infantryman, and now an RN. I have always tried to serve the people, but have never been proud to be one of them. I have gone to war for my country. I have held my dying friends in my arms. I have looked into the face of evil, and spit in it. I have never really been proud of who I am, a member of the human race, and American. Today, I can truly say I am PROUD to be an American.
11-06-2008, 06:41 AM
Quick Orange

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedog

I wish you could be "a fly on the wall" in my living room last night from 11:30 til about 0100 this morning. To listen to my giflfriend cry on the telephone with her 87 year old great aunt who moved from Georgia to New Jersey. There were several very emotional calls but Aunt Carrie was the best. She was on "speakerphone" so I could hear. This woman was born in 1921 and lived in Georgia through the Jim Crow days. She said last night as she was sobbing that in her entire life she always hoped the black man would rise up but while she never stopped hoping, she never actually believed it would come true. I cried too.

There are of course those who will deny that there is any hate groups that target blacks. There are those who will accept segregation and say the concept of "separate but equal" was fair. It wasn't. This is a great victory for the people of the United States in general but if you understand the great contributions to our country by people like Rosa Parks and Dr. Martin Luther King you cannot deny that this is a remarkably joyous day for the blacks of this country.

This afternoon I had an interesting conversation with the black woman who sent me something that could be considered decidedly racist. She joyously proclaimed that Black is on top! Black is first! . She assured me that it could not have been just any black man to attain this landmark. She told me that if the election was between Joe Biden and Jesse Jackson, she would have voted for Biden.

I won't argue about this, because there really isn't a reason to argue. I understand Aunt Carrie's perspective and understand why it's a milestone for her generation. To quote Chris Rock, she went through some real ****. Like you said, Georgia in the Jim Crow days.

Really though, whatever. If that's what the majority wants, a symbol, then fine. That's how this great nation is set up to work. I hope he's more than a symbol and actually proves me wrong.
11-06-2008, 08:12 AM
LX_Emergency

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedog

I wish you could be "a fly on the wall" in my living room last night from 11:30 til about 0100 this morning. To listen to my giflfriend cry on the telephone with her 87 year old great aunt who moved from Georgia to New Jersey. There were several very emotional calls but Aunt Carrie was the best. She was on "speakerphone" so I could hear. This woman was born in 1921 and lived in Georgia through the Jim Crow days. She said last night as she was sobbing that in her entire life she always hoped the black man would rise up but while she never stopped hoping, she never actually believed it would come true. I cried too.

There are of course those who will deny that there is any hate groups that target blacks. There are those who will accept segregation and say the concept of "separate but equal" was fair. It wasn't. This is a great victory for the people of the United States in general but if you understand the great contributions to our country by people like Rosa Parks and Dr. Martin Luther King you cannot deny that this is a remarkably joyous day for the blacks of this country.

This afternoon I had an interesting conversation with the black woman who sent me something that could be considered decidedly racist. She joyously proclaimed that Black is on top! Black is first! . She assured me that it could not have been just any black man to attain this landmark. She told me that if the election was between Joe Biden and Jesse Jackson, she would have voted for Biden.

no-one denies the feelings that these people have.

But on the other hand such feelings came forth out of fear. Not out of rationality. And although I know that people do vote from emotions perspective.....they really shouldn't.

Voting for someone because he "speaks well" is the wrong reason just as voting for someone because he's black is the wrong reason. People should've voted because they like the mans ideas. If they did...great. If they voted for another reason it was not the most clever one.

So i'm not saying that the reason THAT people voted for him was race. I'm just saying that if he DID win because of this he shouldn't have won.

Politics are a thing of logic...or should be at least. Not of fear and emotional hype.
11-06-2008, 08:49 AM
Silver

Quote:

Originally Posted by gssixgun

BTW just to point out the obvious, or perhaps not so obvious...
Barak Hussian Obama is 1/2 white and 1/2 black
But isn't it funny that you all chose to call him the first "Black" president....

I find that very telling!!!!
I am sure his Mother is sooooo proud to see that her half of the family tree is being ignored....

Glen it is the same for Lewis, his mother is white. Mixed relationships are very common over here and no one seems to make a fuss anymore (or at least the ones that do are in the minority). Part of my point in the media handling of the situation is that we don't see Hamilton as being black, he was a prodigy waiting to come into his own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WireBeard

As for "'Tis a good day to be Black", in the author's words I see only pride in being part of a significant portion of Americans, in a monumental achievement brought into being by a majority of voting Americans (again, no hyphens please), with special significance for Black Americans and their achievements as part of the fabric of the American nation. I cannot begrudge him his world view - I have not walked in his shoes.

With this election, it is also good to be a Germano-Anglo-Celt, but even better, it is a great day to be an American.

http://www.smiliegenerator.de/smiley...miley-4384.png

Wirebeard, can I just point out that the author (me) is neither a man or an American and I think my shoes would be way too small for you!";"

Quote:

Originally Posted by majurey

Yep, that's 'labeling' for you, there's no logic or rationality to it.

I'm mixed race. So, according to rational argument, I'm neither white nor yellow, and I'm both white and yellow in equal measure.

Except, in Hong Kong the locals called me a 'ghost' (derogatory term for the white man) and in the UK I've been called a Chink.

I married a Jew. My kids are therefore Jewish. Yet the Orthodox would have a problem with that description, and in Nazi Germany they would have been made to put a pencil in their hair, shake their head, and if the pencil stayed in (tight curly hair being a trait), they'd be classed Jewish and shipped off to the camps.

50-50 or not, lables do not follow such prescribed logic.

I think it's reasonable to describe Obama as black. I don't think any right-thinking person is going to disagree. You can try to rationalise it anyway you like, but I reckon 99 out of 100 people will feel comfortable describing him as black.

As I said, there's no logic in labels, but we all use them. To me, Obama is black. That's great, given the history of persecution and slavery. But in my mind the fact that he's the first balck president is not as important as the fact that he was the right choice for a whole load of other reasons. (My opinion, of course.)

Mr Mark!:D I had no idea you were 50% anything my dear, to us you are just Mad Mark from London.;)
11-06-2008, 08:50 AM
majurey

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

Politics are a thing of logic...or should be at least. Not of fear and emotional hype.

Alex, I don't agree. Politics is one of the most defining aspects of human society. It is charged with emotion. It is all about emotion. Humans are emotional -- it's what marks us out from the rest of the animal kingdom and machines. Every stirring and era-defining political speech has been dripping with emotion, from Martin Luther King to Adolf Hitler.

It is the politician as automoton that we have to fear. The politician who presents himself or herself as inhumanly rational when making decisions that affect peoples' lives. We have plenty of those over here (as I'm sure every state has) and I don't trust them one bit.

Great leadership inspires. Inspiration is an emotion. We all vote for leaders who inspire us. Emotion is therefore not only necessary in politics, it is inseparable from it.
11-06-2008, 08:55 AM
majurey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver

Mr Mark!:D I had no idea you were 50% anything my dear, to us you are just Mad Mark from London.;)

Mad Mark from London? I'm only 50% mad, Silver. :p
11-06-2008, 09:12 AM
Bart

Black people never had really had equal chances in the USA.
Some of them have surely used that as an excuse to not make anything from their lives.
Others have doubled their efforts and achieved goals that white people were able to reach with far less efforts.
Since I'm white, I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to live in a world that will punish you harder for any crime and reward you less for any feat.
I guess most of the black people living on the Northern hemisphere swallow more prejudice in a year than white people do in a lifetime.
I think the outburst of joy is a completely normal and healthy reaction to a black man becoming president, against all odds, and in spite of more people having probably denied him a vote because his race then he received votes for the sake of it.
The only decent thing to do is to feast along with our black brothers and sisters.

A thread was closed today. http://straightrazorpalace.com/conve...ged-sword.html
I am shocked.
11-06-2008, 12:02 PM
icedog

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quick Orange

Really though, whatever. If that's what the majority wants, a symbol, then fine. That's how this great nation is set up to work. I hope he's more than a symbol and actually proves me wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

But on the other hand such feelings came forth out of fear. Not out of rationality. And although I know that people do vote from emotions perspective.....they really shouldn't.

So i'm not saying that the reason THAT people voted for him was race. I'm just saying that if he DID win because of this he shouldn't have won.

Politics are a thing of logic....

"Whatever"? This was won by a man who won the hearts and trust and faith of the majority of the voters. He made the best argument for his case and the people decided. He is going to hold the highest office in the world not because he is a black man but because he is the best man.

Alex, I disagree with you. What is voting but an emotional act? The candidates always rattle off promises. The promises are never completely fulfilled and we the people have come to accept that. So we listen to the logical campaigns with a great grain of salt, sifting through the rhetoric to various levels of fineness until the final decision is made. That decision is not based on logic. Even if a voter makes up spread sheets and analyzes every word a candidate says, the candidate who gets that vote is the one who has made the voter the most comfortable, or, sadly, in many cases, the one who is deemed to be "less evil". If then all things logical are equal, then the logical arguments on all sides will mathmatically cancel leaving nothing but the raw emotion the candidate can stir.

Further Alex you are not qualified to make any dismissive statements about the emotions of the voters in the USA. What have you done to research your claim regarding the root cause of the feelings of the black American? You have stated that feelings based on fear are irrational. That is crap. There is an organization that was formed after the abolition of slavery with the singular purpose of instilling fear into the newly freed negroes. More than a few black men were tortured, hanged and burned to death. To have been black and not be afraid would have been illogical.Take a few minutes to listen and watch Billie Holliday sing with emotion you cannot begin to understand: http://www.kewego.com/video/iLyROoafYnB4.html . Acts of terrorism against the negro continued on many levels for a very long time. I am sure you've heard of the Ku Klux Klan. The US government contributed to the terrorism by making laws designed to keep the black voter away from the polls. Only in 1964 was the 24th ammendment to the Constitution ratified allowing blacks to vote unfettered: Twenty-fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The first thing a white person must admit when making statements regarding how it must feel to be a black person is that he has no idea about what he is saying. I can tell you from much experience that there are very deeply sown seeds of mistrust that have to be dug up and destroyed, one by one. Yesterday was a great day for us all because we have made a giant step forward.

One more thing, it may be easy to dismiss Obama's victory as unimportant because you feel it was strictly based on his brown skin. However, that is wrong. I don't deny that he received many votes simply because he is black but remember that blacks are still a minority in today's population so it must be something else. Obama is a very smart man. He has great leadership skills. He is "street smart". He will be a good President and in contrast to the outgoing guy who will be remembered as the worst President in US history, Obama will shine as bright as the sun. I agree with Silver when she wrote "It is a good day to be black" but again, I also think it is a good day for us all and it's been a long time coming.
11-06-2008, 12:51 PM
Silver

Thanks Brad and I agree it is a good day for us all. For Mr Obama to have made such a good global impression speaks volumes. GW did nothing to inspire confidence in anything he did.

Is it not a good thing that this man will be closely watched on a global level, while we watch on with a renewed hope in our hearts? America is exposed in global media in a positive light for the first time in a very long time and along with it comes a new found respect from us forigners.;)
11-06-2008, 12:57 PM
Navaja

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedog

. . . so it must be something else ...

You hit the nail on the head, people voted against the Republican party. Elections have became a cyclical event, Democrats, Republican, Democrats, etc . . . Until we have another organized party, this is what will happen.

Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it
11-06-2008, 01:28 PM
LX_Emergency

Good lord that's a lot of assumptions about me in there. I'll be commenting in RED

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedog

"Whatever"? This was won by a man who won the hearts and trust and faith of the majority of the voters. He made the best argument for his case and the people decided. He is going to hold the highest office in the world not because he is a black man but because he is the best man.

Alex, I disagree with you. What is voting but an emotional act? The candidates always rattle off promises. The promises are never completely fulfilled and we the people have come to accept that. So we listen to the logical campaigns with a great grain of salt, sifting through the rhetoric to various levels of fineness until the final decision is made. That decision is not based on logic. Even if a voter makes up spread sheets and analyzes every word a candidate says, the candidate who gets that vote is the one who has made the voter the most comfortable, or, sadly, in many cases, the one who is deemed to be "less evil". If then all things logical are equal, then the logical arguments on all sides will mathmatically cancel leaving nothing but the raw emotion the candidate can stir.
I disagree because of this: I think that a politicians words should be his bond. If I know it's not like that which is why I said that it SHOULD be done by logic. I fully understand that that is not how it works or even how it will ever work but it SHOULD. And yes, a politician should make decisions based on empathy as well as logic...but that's how he rules, not how he's elected.

Further Alex you are not qualified to make any dismissive statements about the emotions of the voters in the USA. What do you knkow about me that you can make this statement? Not enough I'd dare say. If you don't know then don't present things as facts. All I've stated is my opinion. What have you done to research your claim regarding the root cause of the feelings of the black American? You have stated that feelings based on fear are irrational. NOT TRUE I've stated that DECISIONS based on fear are irrational. Repeat after me: "Fear is the mindkiller" That is crap. There is an organization that was formed after the abolition of slavery with the singular purpose of instilling fear into the newly freed negroes. More than a few black men were tortured, hanged and burned to death. To have been black and not be afraid would have been illogical.
Yes, but to make decisions based solely on that fear would have been illogical as well. If people would make decisions based on fear nothing would get done anymore because we'd all be too afraid that something bad would happen.
Take a few minutes to listen and watch Billie Holliday sing with emotion you cannot begin to understand:Don't tell me what I can and what I can't. You don't have the foggiest idea about what I can and can not understand. video Billie Holiday - Strange Fruit - billie holiday, strange fruit, video - videos kewego . Acts of terrorism against the negro continued on many levels for a very long time. I am sure you've heard of the Ku Klux Klan. The US government contributed to the terrorism by making laws designed to keep the black voter away from the polls. Only in 1964 was the 24th ammendment to the Constitution ratified allowing blacks to vote unfettered: Twenty-fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Yes, very sad. I mean it. I've read/know quite a bit about those times. It must have been horrible BUT! Is that still true? Is that all still reality? If not then please deal with the current reality and stop feeling sad for yourself. If the black community (or any community for that matter) wants to get anywhere they have to DO something about it like Pres. Elect Obama did. No amount of feeling sorry or sad for your past is going to help.
The first thing a white person must admit when making statements regarding how it must feel to be a black person is that he has no idea about what he is saying. Neither does a black person have any Idea about how it is to be white...or a woman about how it is to be a man. This has nothing to do with the matter. You don't know how it feels to be me either. Should that be a problem? NO. because I decide for it not to be a problem. I can tell you from much experience that there are very deeply sown seeds of mistrust that have to be dug up and destroyed, one by one. Yesterday was a great day for us all because we have made a giant step forward.

Excellent. That's great to hear. I've always worried about the racism in the states. However on the other hand I don't give a rats buttocks for the colour of the pres. Elect. I just hope he's the best man for the job. He could be purple with green spots for all I care.

One more thing, it may be easy to dismiss Obama's victory as unimportant because you feel it was strictly based on his brown skin. I didn't say anything of the sort. Please don't say that about me. I'm not that dumb. I heard the man speak. He's very charismatic and I think that has a LOT more to do with his winning than his skincolout. However, that is wrong. I don't deny that he received many votes simply because he is black but remember that blacks are still a minority in today's population Are they? I've always wondered whether that's true. But I've never seen figures to prove it either way. So I'll leave it open.so it must be something else. Obama is a very smart man. He comes across as such. I never implied anything else. I wasn't attacking the man.He has great leadership skills. That he will have 4 years to prove He is "street smart". I doubt that he'll be on the streets much as pres. But that's great He will be a good President Time will tell and in contrast to the outgoing guy who will be remembered as the worst President in US history, Once again time will tell. US will (hopefully) have a long history ahead of it. You can't make such a blanket statement untill AFTER the US nation is non-existant Obama will shine as bright as the sun. I try not to make predictions but you can try if you want to. I agree with Silver when she wrote "It is a good day to be black" but again, I also think it is a good day for us all and it's been a long time coming. I'm glad you're glad.

Next time you try to make accusations please make sure they're aimed at the right person. Most of the things you accused me of I never even said.
11-06-2008, 01:31 PM
icedog

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaja

You hit the nail on the head, people voted against the Republican party. Elections have became a cyclical event, Democrats, Republican, Democrats, etc . . . Until we have another organized party, this is what will happen.

Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it

I guess you have personally interviewed all the people who voted? Well it doesn't matter. The purpose of this thread is not to satisfy your need to make snotty, bitter comments. This thread was authored to offer a sincere congratulatory note to a group of people who have fought very hard and very long to realize what can only be described as a dream come true.
11-06-2008, 01:33 PM
LX_Emergency

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedog

I guess you have personally interviewed all the people who voted? Well it doesn't matter. The purpose of this thread is not to satisfy your need to make snotty, bitter comments. This thread was authored to offer a sincere congratulatory note to a group of people who have fought very hard and very long to realize what can only be described as a dream come true.

There you go again, another blanket statement. You don't know what kind of research he's done. Neither do you know every person who claim have fought very hard.

I'm not saying they haven't...I'm just saying you don't know it about all of them either.
11-06-2008, 01:43 PM
icedog

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

Good lord that's a lot of assumptions about me in there. I'll be commenting in RED

Next time you try to make accusations please make sure they're aimed at the right person. Most of the things you accused me of I never even said.

You are repeating yourself and you still don't know what you're talking about. Who are you to make a statement that people from a foreign land are voting for "the wrong reason".

You made another statement, in fact you opened a thread stating that you are glad the election is over. If you are so annoyed by us and our American political ideals, why don't you stop involving yourself? Or, seeing how you are such an expert on the decision making process of American voters, why don't you begin your own thread and enlighten us ignorant Americans?
11-06-2008, 01:52 PM
LX_Emergency

That's another insult. I'd prefer to talk this out over PM. Please open yours.
11-06-2008, 01:55 PM
jockeys

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedog

No ad hominem from me. If I had mentioned that your red neck was showing or asked you if you had a rebel flag on your pick up truck perhaps then you could make such a claim. I merely (sarcastically but with a loving spirit) questioned your compassion.

Brad

compassion is irrelevant. as alex so correctly pointed out, and election should be a logical, rational choice: who is going to do the best job of leading our country?

but it ain't. it's a big pep rally; all emotion and little thought. people voted for obama, whether because of his race (something he isn't responsible for choosing) or the fact that he made them "feel hope." what a load of crap. feelings and race cards are equally out of place in ANY election, and the main reason i don't care for him is because his entire platform seemed to be built on these two non-issues, rather than on his voting record which is the only thing that really matters.
11-06-2008, 01:59 PM
icedog

It appears impossible in these forums to have a positive discussion about the victory of a black man.
11-06-2008, 02:06 PM
nun2sharp

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedog

It appears impossible in these forums to have a positive discussion about the victory of a black man.

Brad maybe its not what you are doing, but how.
11-06-2008, 02:08 PM
hoglahoo

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedog

It appears impossible in these forums to have a positive discussion about the victory of a black man.

Brad, don't be so defeatist!

With Obama, "all things are possible"

:tu
11-06-2008, 02:10 PM
roughneck

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedog

It appears impossible in these forums to have a positive discussion about the victory of a black man.

This isn't true. The mayor of my town is a black man and he is doing an outstanding job. Roads are being fixed, jobs have been created, and our recyling program has been brought out of the dark ages. And the funny thing is most of the people that have bad things to say about him are also black.
11-06-2008, 02:15 PM
icedog

Quote:

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

Brad maybe its not what you are doing, but how.

I am an ignorant, aging, penniless white man. I never had the priviledge of a formal education. I can only say what I feel based on my experiences. I don't profess to be erudite. This is as good as it gets for me. Sorry to disappoint. That is my sharpest skill.
11-06-2008, 02:19 PM
nun2sharp

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedog

I am an ignorant, aging, penniless white man. I never had the priviledge of a formal education. I can only say what I feel based on my experiences. I don't profess to be erudite. This is as good as it gets for me. Sorry to disappoint. That is my sharpest skill.

That makes two of us!
11-06-2008, 02:22 PM
maplemaker

My magnum opus on the subject.

I can't wait to see what happens over the next 8 years. Since things are getting all ad hominem up in here, I wanna add my two cents in this thread as well. My wife was up until almost midnight crying on Tuesday, too. And then she woke up about every hour and fifteen minutes after that to cry some more. Yesterday, (I'm on the Army's Honor Guard out here) before I traveled to a funeral for a soldier, she called me on the phone to ask me to see if I can swing an early retirement in my skill set so we can leave the country. See, it's not about black or white. It's about she was born in Chile in 1962. In 1970, Chile held free elections (as has been their wont since the 1800's) and the first freely elected socialist president in the western hemisphere won. Three years later, due to the economic ruin and the vain ambitions of evil men (with U.S. backing, training and influence, of course...) that democratically elected government was violently overthrown and a 17-year reign of murder was introduced. She lived through all that, and I lived through some of it. Pinochet had his "civilian security force", just as Obama has mentioned. It was called the DINA. Feel free to check with Amnesty International to see just how civil they were. If any of you live in Sheffield, England, and know a Raul Contreras Lastra, please tell him his niece and nephew-in-law say hello, and she misses him. He was an officer in the Chilean Air Force. When he was ordered, on 11 SEP 73, to release his weapons to his troops for a final assault on the presidential palace, he refused. The military police arrested him on the spot. He was "disappeared" for two months and then, thank God, exiled to England instead of shot and buried in a mass grave. He won't return to Chile. My wife's family was, one fine Chilean sunny summer day, forced out of their house at gunpoint with nothing but the clothes on their backs by the army. See, my father-in-law had helped repair a tractor on a commune during Allende's socialist presidency, and when the dictatorship heard about it, they decided that he was too communist to have a house anymore. I remember the elections in 1990 when Pinochet was finally ousted. It was like a breath of fresh air after 17 years of being under water. The country went crazy after the new president was sworn in, and it was wonderful. Two days later, they started excavating the mass graves. I guess what I'm saying is twofold: If you think it can't happen here, you're wrong. It's already happened here before. AND, NO ONE has cornered the market on oppression or being downtrodden. These gentlemanly flame wars back and forth, coming from people who really haven't lived on either side of the line are beginning to look quite childish. Had I not been burying a guy yesterday and able to sit at the computer and see all of icedog's baiting and amushing, recognizing it for what it was, I would most likely have not replied at all to the thread that got shut down. FWIW, most of my friends aren't black. Most of my friends aren't white. Most of my friends aren't even in the U.S. But EVERY SINGLE ONE OF MY FRIENDS AND MY ENEMIES ARE HUMAN BEINGS.

(vent vent vent. good LORD!)
11-06-2008, 02:39 PM
icedog

Quote:

Originally Posted by maplemaker

...all of icedog's baiting and amushing, recognizing it for what it was...

You flatter me. I haven't the skills to do anything other than speak my mind. I am trying to keep positive about a clearly positive event. I am a very simple man who wears his heart on his sleeve. I have not the guile of a turnip.
11-06-2008, 02:42 PM
nun2sharp

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedog

You flatter me. I haven't the skills to do anything other than speak my mind. I am trying to keep positive about a clearly positive event. I am a very simple man who wears his heart on his sleeve. I have not the guile of a turnip.

Now Brad!:nono::rofl2: Tell us another story!:roflmao
11-06-2008, 02:43 PM
Silver

Alex and Brad, can you guys PLEASE TONE IT DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!:nono: I DO NOT want to bring Mods officially in on here but will if I have to.

Thank you.
11-06-2008, 02:57 PM
Bruno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver

Alex and Brad, can you guys PLEASE TONE IT DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!:nono: I DO NOT want to bring Mods officially in on here but will if I have to.

Thank you.

And neither do I!
Oh...
wait a minute...

If the only point of a post is to complain about how you've been insulted, then don't post and simply ignore this thread or the argument you were having.

LET. IT. GO. :mace:

Life is too short to waste your time fighting in a forum that is -in the grand scheme of things- rather insignificant. If the discussion was about someting, anything, relevant, I'd understand. But bickering over who insulted whom, when, and why is not productive, and a waste of perfectly good electrons.
11-06-2008, 02:58 PM
nun2sharp

:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2: Silver, my dear, youre sounding more like a mother already!! You rock girl!!:rock: You too Bruno!
11-06-2008, 02:59 PM
LX_Emergency

You people are all behind, me'n Brad have already worked things out through PM.
11-06-2008, 03:03 PM
JimmyHAD

To whom it may concern, I ,and I think most others, voted for Barack Obama because I think that he is by far the best of the two choices we had. By far! Not because of his ethnicity. I have not felt as much hope for the results of an election in 40 years. My candidate then was Robert Kennedy. For me the two best presidents in my lifetime were FDR and LBJ. They weren't perfect but they represented all of the people. The fact that an African American could win the highest office in what was an apartheid society for much of it's history deserves some comment and some celebration. It is as simple as that.
11-06-2008, 03:06 PM
icedog

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

You people are all behind, me'n Brad have already worked things out through PM.

True enough. Though my "bull in a china shop" debating technique may leave a few smarting. I apologize and hope to make it clear that my goal is strictly to maintain the original intent of this thread. Anyone who disagrees with me can, er, uh nevermind.

I am now going to withdraw and go with Basil to the shop for some therapeutic productivity. I have a sticker on my refridgerator that says, "Dear God, Please help me to be the person my dog thinks I am".

I'm working on it.
11-06-2008, 08:01 PM
rastewart

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedog

I have a sticker on my refridgerator that says, "Dear God, Please help me to be the person my dog thinks I am".

A pretty good moral compass.

(Since our dog left us last spring, I'd have to think of alternatives. "Please help me to be the person my parakeets think I am" ... hmmm ... no.)

Anyway--also recalling what I understood as the original spirit of the thread--as a white man I don't think I can fully feel what this election means to African-Americans. But I do feel--along with my conviction that the best candidate, race aside, won--a deep relief that we have crossed some kind of threshold. Not that our racial troubles, inequities, and divisions are behind us by any means. But we have at least journeyed away from that time, not so long ago, when for Barack Obama even to have been a serious candidate for the presidency would have been unthinkable. I heard someone on the radio yesterday say, "America's all grown up now." I wouldn't go so far; maybe no individual and no nation ever gets all grown up. But I do feel that we are growing up.

~Rich
11-06-2008, 11:27 PM
Hutch

Quote:

Originally Posted by maplemaker

I can't wait to see what happens over the next 8 years. Since things are getting all ad hominem up in here, I wanna add my two cents in this thread as well. My wife was up until almost midnight crying on Tuesday, too. And then she woke up about every hour and fifteen minutes after that to cry some more. Yesterday, (I'm on the Army's Honor Guard out here) before I traveled to a funeral for a soldier, she called me on the phone to ask me to see if I can swing an early retirement in my skill set so we can leave the country. See, it's not about black or white. It's about she was born in Chile in 1962. In 1970, Chile held free elections (as has been their wont since the 1800's) and the first freely elected socialist president in the western hemisphere won. Three years later, due to the economic ruin and the vain ambitions of evil men (with U.S. backing, training and influence, of course...) that democratically elected government was violently overthrown and a 17-year reign of murder was introduced. She lived through all that, and I lived through some of it. Pinochet had his "civilian security force", just as Obama has mentioned. It was called the DINA. Feel free to check with Amnesty International to see just how civil they were. If any of you live in Sheffield, England, and know a Raul Contreras Lastra, please tell him his niece and nephew-in-law say hello, and she misses him. He was an officer in the Chilean Air Force. When he was ordered, on 11 SEP 73, to release his weapons to his troops for a final assault on the presidential palace, he refused. The military police arrested him on the spot. He was "disappeared" for two months and then, thank God, exiled to England instead of shot and buried in a mass grave. He won't return to Chile. My wife's family was, one fine Chilean sunny summer day, forced out of their house at gunpoint with nothing but the clothes on their backs by the army. See, my father-in-law had helped repair a tractor on a commune during Allende's socialist presidency, and when the dictatorship heard about it, they decided that he was too communist to have a house anymore. I remember the elections in 1990 when Pinochet was finally ousted. It was like a breath of fresh air after 17 years of being under water. The country went crazy after the new president was sworn in, and it was wonderful. Two days later, they started excavating the mass graves. I guess what I'm saying is twofold: If you think it can't happen here, you're wrong. It's already happened here before. AND, NO ONE has cornered the market on oppression or being downtrodden. These gentlemanly flame wars back and forth, coming from people who really haven't lived on either side of the line are beginning to look quite childish. Had I not been burying a guy yesterday and able to sit at the computer and see all of icedog's baiting and amushing, recognizing it for what it was, I would most likely have not replied at all to the thread that got shut down. FWIW, most of my friends aren't black. Most of my friends aren't white. Most of my friends aren't even in the U.S. But EVERY SINGLE ONE OF MY FRIENDS AND MY ENEMIES ARE HUMAN BEINGS.

(vent vent vent. good LORD!)

I know we disagree but I really do find this is very sad, I'm serious, the fear that has been misplaced in people by the a campaign (either side). They say things and don't really understand the damage that these attacks can have on people. Then there are the ones that use fear to increase their ratings.

Please have your wife watch the video of McCain and Obama together at the dinner after the final debate. They got along very well, both were funny. Seriously do you think if Obama was so dangerous these sort of things would go on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N-j0W6MW-U

There is a big difference between the term "Socialist" and Totalitarian Communist regimes, an Military Juntas. I know it doesn't mean much, but she really has nothing to fear, John McCain said this himself.

I really hope your wife can find a way to allay her fears.

Best wishes.
11-07-2008, 02:04 AM
twelvepbrs

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedog

I am an ignorant, aging, penniless white man. I never had the priviledge of a formal education. I can only say what I feel based on my experiences. I don't profess to be erudite. This is as good as it gets for me. Sorry to disappoint. That is my sharpest skill.

I would think a guy who hangs out on SRP would have some other sharper skills than disappointing people...:rolleyes:

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