Thread: Medicine

I don't know what the criteria for this ranking system is, and I don't want to start a discussion, but based on personal experience Spain's health care system sucks big time, and it's the #7 on the list. JMHO.

Originally Posted by gugi

That's what the government funded health care in my country does - the government sets the rates that the doctors who participate in the system get to get and then everybody is free to pick their own doctor. You are also free to go to a doctor who does not participate in the government system and pay whatever rates they charge. What you don't get to do is not pay your medical tax (charged half and half to the employer and the employee). They've been having hard time enforcing this last one with small business and self-employed, though. I think at some point they just stop providing them healthcare. It's a new system that is being established now though - it was truly socialist not too long ago.

Gugi, Did they give their reasoning for introducing free market forces into their totally socialist system?


If we are obligated to provide "healthcare" What is healthcare, and when does our societal obligation end and each individuals responsibility for their own choices (good or bad) begin?

Do I have to pay for giving a liver to a cirrhosis patient? How about lungs to a smoker? Rehab for a crack head? To pull a bullet out of a gang warrior? Aids drugs for a unrepentant sex addict? These people are all in a predicament of their own making why is it my responsibility to save them from the consequences of their actions.

At the same time if a person is prudent and saves their resources for future need, how can I deny him the right to use those resources for their immediate benefit?

Frankly socialized medicine is yet another symptom of the erosion of personal responsibility and the independence of thought that once made people strive for greatness.

i think the part that we are missing (though i think Gugi touched on it a bit) is that education on every aspect of health is basicly nonexistent, and i live in Canada where if i need stitches or crash my car i don't have a huge bill for it after. there are so many people who think of their doctors as Gods and do whatever they are told to and are getting sicker. PLEASE do not think i hate doctors. they are amazing and deserve all the credit in the world as they have a very stressful and intense profession and do genuinely help many people. But, that being said they are very over worked because people cannot help themselves. they go to the doctor forevery little thing and considering cardio vascular disease is ridiculously high they get sick a lot. people are not healthy because they don't associate the food they eat with their health. people think that they are getting sick because everybody gets sick, rather then the fact that they eat processed food for every meal and their immune system is virtually nonexistent. this is because they just don't know, and typically their doctors have no idea how to give dietary advice as they are simply not taught it. so when giving advice to patients what is going to come to mind, a drug that they have all the info on and have had research or a change in ones diet combined with exercise. if anyone tries to say that healthy eating and exercise is snake oil then just stop trying. drugs are great in emergencies but everyday is out of the question.

education is everything. keep your body healthy and you won't get sick and you won't need medication. and people just don't understand that at all. i won't even get in to the natural cures for people because i know that i will get flogged with PMs about placebos and snake oil which i don't need. sorry i don't mean to be negative but i get it a lot. prevention is the way.

Originally Posted by chee16

i think the part that we are missing (though i think Gugi touched on it a bit) is that education on every aspect of health is basicly nonexistent, and i live in Canada where if i need stitches or crash my car i don't have a huge bill for it after. there are so many people who think of their doctors as Gods and do whatever they are told to and are getting sicker. PLEASE do not think i hate doctors. they are amazing and deserve all the credit in the world as they have a very stressful and intense profession and do genuinely help many people. But, that being said they are very over worked because people cannot help themselves. they go to the doctor forevery little thing and considering cardio vascular disease is ridiculously high they get sick a lot. people are not healthy because they don't associate the food they eat with their health. people think that they are getting sick because everybody gets sick, rather then the fact that they eat processed food for every meal and their immune system is virtually nonexistent. this is because they just don't know, and typically their doctors have no idea how to give dietary advice as they are simply not taught it. so when giving advice to patients what is going to come to mind, a drug that they have all the info on and have had research or a change in ones diet combined with exercise. if anyone tries to say that healthy eating and exercise is snake oil then just stop trying. drugs are great in emergencies but everyday is out of the question.

education is everything. keep your body healthy and you won't get sick and you won't need medication. and people just don't understand that at all. i won't even get in to the natural cures for people because i know that i will get flogged with PMs about placebos and snake oil which i don't need. sorry i don't mean to be negative but i get it a lot. prevention is the way.

Doctors themselves bear some of the responsibility for this. Ever met a doctor who had a clue about nutrition? Me either. For better or worse, doctors tend to be interventive, not preventive.

But I agree with Tim. Personal choices should affect a person's access to health care. Smokers should be denied insurance, as should other risk-takers.

Obama's not talking about universal, single -payer health care. He's talking about making health insurance available to more people. He has a proposal for that, which he'll have to negotiate with Congress, on both sides of the aisle. That's why I was so disappointed in Boner's op-ed the other day in which he stated that Republicans were going to continue to obstruct any progress. Pretty sad.

j

Originally Posted by Wildtim

Frankly socialized medicine is yet another symptom of the erosion of personal responsibility and the independence of thought that once made people strive for greatness.

I agree! The only problem is, people seem to prefer comfort (or at least the illusion of comfort) over hard work and responsibility!

Originally Posted by chee16

i think the part that we are missing (though i think Gugi touched on it a bit) is that education on every aspect of health is basicly nonexistent, and i live in Canada where if i need stitches or crash my car i don't have a huge bill for it after. there are so many people who think of their doctors as Gods and do whatever they are told to and are getting sicker. PLEASE do not think i hate doctors. they are amazing and deserve all the credit in the world as they have a very stressful and intense profession and do genuinely help many people. But, that being said they are very over worked because people cannot help themselves. they go to the doctor forevery little thing and considering cardio vascular disease is ridiculously high they get sick a lot. people are not healthy because they don't associate the food they eat with their health. people think that they are getting sick because everybody gets sick, rather then the fact that they eat processed food for every meal and their immune system is virtually nonexistent. this is because they just don't know, and typically their doctors have no idea how to give dietary advice as they are simply not taught it. so when giving advice to patients what is going to come to mind, a drug that they have all the info on and have had research or a change in ones diet combined with exercise. if anyone tries to say that healthy eating and exercise is snake oil then just stop trying. drugs are great in emergencies but everyday is out of the question.

education is everything. keep your body healthy and you won't get sick and you won't need medication. and people just don't understand that at all. i won't even get in to the natural cures for people because i know that i will get flogged with PMs about placebos and snake oil which i don't need. sorry i don't mean to be negative but i get it a lot. prevention is the way.

This points to the definition of health care. I for one am not huge into "alternative medicine" but I also feel that "health care" and what it is about and how it works being defined only by often narrow minded western "doctors" is missing a large part of the picture.

Originally Posted by Wildtim

Frankly socialized medicine is yet another symptom of the erosion of personal responsibility and the independence of thought that once made people strive for greatness.

I question this premise. Even if we were talking about socialized medicine (which Obama, at least, is not), I don't see the connection between it and "personal responsibility." It's what logicians call a false dichotomy.

Can you connect the dots on your thinking?

j

A hundred years ago "health care" as we understand it did not even exist. It doesn't exist in much of today's world, either. How can something that most human beings never had or don't have access to be a basic human right? And what level of medicine? Should a man in sub-Saharan African be able to expect an MRI on demand? Or would you rather that man and a wealthy man in Texas both wait months, years, maybe even decades in fairness? Nationalized medicine is a great equalizer: it makes everybody sick. It also makes people willing to pay more for better, faster service criminals. Back alley knee surgeries, with rusty coat hangers. Why isn't the left more upset about that?

Originally Posted by Whiggamore

A hundred years ago "health care" as we understand it did not even exist. It doesn't exist in much of today's world, either. How can something that most human beings never had or don't have access to be a basic human right? And what level of medicine? Should a man in sub-Saharan African be able to expect an MRI on demand? Or would you rather that man and a wealthy man in Texas both wait months, years, maybe even decades in fairness? Nationalized medicine is a great equalizer: it makes everybody sick. It also makes people willing to pay more for better, faster service criminals. Back alley knee surgeries, with rusty coat hangers. Why isn't the left more upset about that?

Rather than continuing to hold an imaginary conversation with someone you call the "left," you might be better served to address the tens of millions of moderates who just swept the radical right from power. They seem to want an improvement to their health care system.

To that end, your suggestions would be most welcome.

j

Originally Posted by Wildtim

Do I have to pay for giving a liver to a cirrhosis patient? How about lungs to a smoker? Rehab for a crack head? To pull a bullet out of a gang warrior? Aids drugs for a unrepentant sex addict? These people are all in a predicament of their own making why is it my responsibility to save them from the consequences of their actions.

It is for everyone hwo needs it, regardless of the situation.

Originally Posted by Wildtim

At the same time if a person is prudent and saves their resources for future need, how can I deny him the right to use those resources for their immediate benefit?

Refusing medical insurance is not prudent. It is a pure gamble. Because if you have only 1 serious accident, you are bankrupted for life.
I remember the story of the US construction worker who had no insurance and shot himself in the eye with a nailgun. He was glad he survived, but sad because he'd have to work the rest of his life to pay off the 100K$ he'd racked up.

Originally Posted by Wildtim

Frankly socialized medicine is yet another symptom of the erosion of personal responsibility and the independence of thought that once made people strive for greatness.

I counter that social healthcare is a sign of a responsible society in which the people have recognized that a healthy society is generally better off, and that preventing desperation and lawsuits because of something as trivial as healthcare is a good thing.

We can discuss this a long time and we will never agree.
You believe is maximum personal freedom (I think), and I believe in compromise to make sure that society as a whole is a better place to live in. By the same token, I fully agree with seatbelt and helmet laws.