Pandoras Box?

**Hutch** · 11-12-2008, 03:18 AM

Quick Orange who buys aircraft? The airline industry mainly, and I don't know anyone who'll say that the airline industry, anywhere, is in good shape. They may have orders going out into the future but until someone pays for them, Oh yea with the money that the banks don't want to lend, I wouldn't count my chickens till those eggs hatch. Same goes for private jet manufactures, I think you'll see their sales hurt for sometime too.

Boy do I really hope I'm wrong.

**Nord Jim** · 11-12-2008, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by Quick Orange

I won't argue about the aircraft industry any more. It may not be as big as the automotive industry, but it's at least growing and not deeply in the red. Check the numbers- you'll see it's on the rise. Even Boeing is far outpacing Airbus.

Jim, I say let it crash. All the pieces of the automotive puzzle will still be available, and some enterprising investor will come along and restart the process. There will be a temporary loss of work, but how is it any different from the strikes? The newly reborn marques will rehire the people that lost their jobs by necessity, and things will be back to normal. All they have to do is what the Japanese did (interesting reading for anyone interested).

I tend to think of those who will lose their jobs, homes, savings, and retirements. Starting from scratch leaves a lot of people out. And based on our track record, I don't think that if Detroit crashes, it will rise from the ashes. Competition out there will be fierce, and besides, where will they get the venture capital?

I think it's better to use what we have to move on. Save what we can.

I know it's tempting to let 'em burn, though. I feel that way myself sometimes.

Sometimes, the folkies get it right: YouTube - I'm Changing My Name to Chrysler (Arlo Guthrie)

**Bruno** · 11-12-2008, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Nord Jim

I used "Korean" to mean "Non-American."
So how about this?
So I guess we'll buy the cars that free us from foreign oil from non-American sources?

And why not? No country can make everything it needs efficiently.
Imo there is nothing wrong with that. Why should you make everything yourself?
And to be honest: the US sucks at making cars. Why should the government keep pumping money into an industry that makes inferior products at a premium?

Originally Posted by Nord Jim

And for the ones we actually manufacture here, we'll ship the profits to Osaka.
Better?
j

The Honda plants in the US provide jobs for thousands. Money that get injected in your economy.
So what does it matter if it is a Japanese company?

**jockeys** · 11-12-2008, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Nord Jim

I used "Korean" to mean "Non-American."

So how about this?

So I guess we'll buy the cars that free us from foreign oil from non-American sources?

And for the ones we actually manufacture here, we'll ship the profits to Osaka.

Better?

j

fair enough. i don't see the problem. america, apparently, sucks at making cars when it comes to japan, germany, etc. so maybe we should try to do other things we don't suck at. that's the essence of business. if america can't remain competitive, america can't remain competitive. simple as that. just because we have a history that involves having done something right in the past is no guarantee that we're still any good at it, and certainly not a blank check to not innovate and remain competitive.

it's that sort of complacence that has caused, imo, the american auto industry to be so staggeringly non-competitive.

/offtopic-> hutch, i love the domo-kun avatar. very fark.

**jockeys** · 11-12-2008, 02:21 PM

whoops, shoulda read bruno's post, that's what i get for hitting quote without finishing the thread

bruno, right on the money.

**nun2sharp** · 11-12-2008, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Bruno

And why not? No country can make everything it needs efficiently.
Imo there is nothing wrong with that. Why should you make everything yourself?
And to be honest: the US sucks at making cars.

At one time this would have been blatantly false! We had the raw materials, the production capacity and the labor force to do damn near anything/everything.

**jockeys** · 11-12-2008, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

At one time this would have been blatantly false! We had the raw materials, the production capacity and the labor force to do damn near anything/everything.

at one time. perhaps. but not nowadays, it seems. the american auto industry doesn't suffer from lack of raw materials, or lack of a large enough labor force.

so why aren't they competitive? there are many reasons, both technical and otherwise, but I think perhaps the biggest is the rejection of Deming's philosophy back after WW2, and Deming's subsequent teaching of said philosophy to Japan. Inside of a decade or two Japan became a major player in the global car market (and other forms of manufacturing) because of this. To this day, they beat the pants off america (in the auto industry, anyway) when it comes to technological innovation, quality control, and customer satisfaction.
W. Edwards Deming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just a theory I've had for a while... any thoughts?

**Nord Jim** · 11-12-2008, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by jockeys

fair enough. i don't see the problem. america, apparently, sucks at making cars when it comes to japan, germany, etc. so maybe we should try to do other things we don't suck at. that's the essence of business. if america can't remain competitive, america can't remain competitive. simple as that. just because we have a history that involves having done something right in the past is no guarantee that we're still any good at it, and certainly not a blank check to not innovate and remain competitive.

it's that sort of complacence that has caused, imo, the american auto industry to be so staggeringly non-competitive.

/offtopic-> hutch, i love the domo-kun avatar. very fark.

Agreed. By all means, let's try to find something we don't suck at. Hmmm.

But remember -- we're competing against countries that have coherent economic plans and that routinely help their industries with market incentives, technological and other subsidies, and tariff protection. The fact that we don't have a plan shouldn't be read to mean that we don't need a plan.

This business of letting our critical industries sink or swim on their own is, I believe, one of the signal weaknesses of Hayakian economic theory. As far as I'm concerned, failure to come up with an economic plan at this stage represents doing more of what got us into this mess to begin with.

j

**Hutch** · 11-12-2008, 07:28 PM

There is the big question what is the US good at that anyone would want to buy for which there is a market to which the US would want to sell the product?

**jockeys** · 11-12-2008, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Nord Jim

This business of letting our critical industries sink or swim on their own is, I believe, one of the signal weaknesses of Hayakian economic theory. As far as I'm concerned, failure to come up with an economic plan at this stage represents doing more of what got us into this mess to begin with.

j

it is unfortunate that some industries sink, to be sure, but I believe that the freedom to be allowed to do so is vital to our country, and so deeply ingrained in our people that it will not easily be relinquished.

this is the land of self-made men, where we all are endowed with the right to succeed or fail as we please. I can totally see how state-mandated programs can increase the odds of success of a particular venture, and how your economy might actually benefit from it. but I think the loss of liberty is incompatible with the american spirit, and can only hope that people still have the constitution (pun intended) to stick up for themselves without starting down the slipperry slope of nanny-statism.

eta: I should add that I generally agree with Hayek, although not always. educational link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek#Work

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