Pandoras Box?

**fccexpert** · 11-12-2008, 07:39 PM

Well, Obama and his liberal ilk will need some source of income to pay for their welfare state. They could tax everyone to death, but why not cut out the middle man and just nationalize the companies so that all the income goes straight into the governement vaults to be paid out to their cronies and supporters at will?

**Nord Jim** · 11-12-2008, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by jockeys

it is unfortunate that some industries sink, to be sure, but I believe that the freedom to be allowed to do so is vital to our country, and so deeply ingrained in our people that it will not easily be relinquished.

this is the land of self-made men, where we all are endowed with the right to succeed or fail as we please. I can totally see how state-mandated programs can increase the odds of success of a particular venture, and how your economy might actually benefit from it. but I think the loss of liberty is incompatible with the american spirit, and can only hope that people still have the constitution (pun intended) to stick up for themselves without starting down the slipperry slope of nanny-statism.

eta: I should add that I generally agree with Hayek, although not always. educational link:
Friedrich Hayek - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unfortunately, we're about to become a self-made third-world country.

Ah, Hayek. Gotta love him.

j

**Nord Jim** · 11-12-2008, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by fccexpert

Well, Obama and his liberal ilk will need some source of income to pay for their welfare state. They could tax everyone to death, but why not cut out the middle man and just nationalize the companies so that all the income goes straight into the governement vaults to be paid out to their cronies and supporters at will?

Just out of curiosity, what is there in Obama's utterances that suggests he favors a welfare state? Have you read any of his proposals or writing?

I guess I'm saying that although I appreciate your fear, I don't have any idea of what you base it on.

j

**jockeys** · 11-12-2008, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Nord Jim

Just out of curiosity, what is there in Obama's utterances that suggests he favors a welfare state? Have you read any of his proposals or writing?

I guess I'm saying that although I appreciate your fear, I don't have any idea of what you base it on.

j

"My attitude is that if the economy's good for folks from the bottom up, it's gonna be good for everybody ... I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody." Ohio campaign stop; October 13, 2008

"You can take your diploma, walk off this stage, and chase only after the big house and the nice suits, but I hope you don't. Not because you have an obligation to those who are less fortunate, although I believe you do have that obligation. Not because you have a debt to all those who helped you get here, although I do believe you have that debt. It's because you have an obligation to yourself. Because our individual salvation depends on collective salvation. Because thinking only about yourself, fulfilling your immediate wants and needs, betrays a poverty of ambition." Wesleyan Graduation Ceremony, Middletown, Connecticut, May 25, 2008

emphasis mine

**Sue** · 11-13-2008, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by jockeys

"My attitude is that if the economy's good for folks from the bottom up, it's gonna be good for everybody ... I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody." Ohio campaign stop; October 13, 2008

"You can take your diploma, walk off this stage, and chase only after the big house and the nice suits, but I hope you don't. Not because you have an obligation to those who are less fortunate, although I believe you do have that obligation. Not because you have a debt to all those who helped you get here, although I do believe you have that debt. It's because you have an obligation to yourself. Because our individual salvation depends on collective salvation. Because thinking only about yourself, fulfilling your immediate wants and needs, betrays a poverty of ambition." Wesleyan Graduation Ceremony, Middletown, Connecticut, May 25, 2008

emphasis mine

That is what he said, and Obama also said it was 'Selfish' to not want to pay taxes. YouTube - Obama socialism - Spread the wealth around (his own words) Obama and Biden gifting

**Nord Jim** · 11-13-2008, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by jockeys

"My attitude is that if the economy's good for folks from the bottom up, it's gonna be good for everybody ... I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody." Ohio campaign stop; October 13, 2008

"You can take your diploma, walk off this stage, and chase only after the big house and the nice suits, but I hope you don't. Not because you have an obligation to those who are less fortunate, although I believe you do have that obligation. Not because you have a debt to all those who helped you get here, although I do believe you have that debt. It's because you have an obligation to yourself. Because our individual salvation depends on collective salvation. Because thinking only about yourself, fulfilling your immediate wants and needs, betrays a poverty of ambition." Wesleyan Graduation Ceremony, Middletown, Connecticut, May 25, 2008

emphasis mine

"Spreading the wealth around" was a reference to his proposal to let the middle class keep more of the money they earn, while requiring the top one percent to pay something closer to the rate the rest of us pay.

You don't think it's a noble ambition to want to leave the world a better, more just place? That's the meaning of the graduation speech.

You can't make Marxism or welfare state out of any of this. We've been subject to 25 years of the most radical redistribution of wealth in the nation's history, and all Obama is talking about is evening the burden out a bit.

j

**Hutch** · 11-13-2008, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by Sue

That is what he said, and Obama also said it was 'Selfish' to not want to pay taxes.
Biden said "it's patriotic to pay taxes'

I'll choose my own Charities, (and I do), thank you very much.
Sue

How many of your charities pay for wars, build roads, pay for the air traffic control system, ect?

That is they reported less than 1%, I give to charities and rarely claim it on my income tax because its charity and I don't expect to get money back because of it.

2007 he reported income of $4.2million paid $1.4 million in taxes and donated $240,370 looks like more than 1% to me.

As there income grew there charitable donations grew as well in 2000 they earned $240, 505 and they donated $2,350 by 2006 there income was $1.2 million and they donated $60,307 or approx. 6% of their income which is approx. the same as 2007.

**Hutch** · 11-13-2008, 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by Nord Jim

"Spreading the wealth around" was a reference to his proposal to let the middle class keep more of the money they earn, while requiring the top one percent to pay something closer to the rate the rest of us pay.

You don't think it's a noble ambition to want to leave the world a better, more just place? That's the meaning of the graduation speech.

You can't make Marxism or welfare state out of any of this. We've been subject to 25 years of the most radical redistribution of wealth in the nation's history, and all Obama is talking about is evening the burden out a bit.

j

Come on it's the me generation.

I asked the question before and never got a response from my right-wing friends, a majority of them seem to think these wars are the cats @ss, who and how do they think they will get paid for ($10 billion dollars/month). If the war and supporting it is patriotic, why wouldn't paying for be patriotic too?

**nun2sharp** · 11-13-2008, 01:17 AM

So what are we going to do to get out of this mess? Pointing fingers hasnt worked.

**Hutch** · 11-13-2008, 01:24 AM

Here we go agreeing again.

He's been elected President, live with it and make the best of it. Moaning and groaning isn't going to change anything. You never know it just might not be so bad.

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