Thread: Abortion: split from stem cell research

If you're pro-life and believe that human life begins at the moment of conception; and that abortion is literally the murder of a human being, then would you support and want to see the death penalty applied to any woman who has an abortion, and well as all the medical personnel involved in the procedure? And would any laypersons who counseled the woman to have an abortion and lent any type of assistance in facilitating its performance (for example, driving the woman to the abortion clinic knowing the abortion will be performed) be subject to, if not murder charges, lesser charges such as manslaughter or aiding in the commission of a crime?
If your answer is "no", why not, if abortion is literally the murder of a human being?

Originally Posted by loueedacat

Nope. On this one you are wrong, and I am right.

That was an whacked out activist court. In the latter half of the twentieth century we needed a whakced out activist court for all the civil rights stuff, so I'm not bitter, but constiutional right to privacy.....please.

Oh, judicial activism...which comes first, believing in a "living document" constitution or being a"liberal?" Being a strict textualist/original intent guy or a "conservative?"

The Warren court, from Brown v. BoE to the Griswold line of cases, led the way to Roe with an alternative (to strict textualism) way of seeing the document that gives us our rights.

Now, if being a living document academic makes me a whacked out activist, then I agree with you 100%.
I just don't belive it does, any more than being an original intent scholar makes Bork, Scalia, and Roberts reactionary and backward thinking (I happen to believe they are wrong, though).

Originally Posted by billyjeff2

If you're pro-life and believe that human life begins at the moment of conception; and that abortion is literally the murder of a human being, then would you support and want to see the death penalty applied to any woman who has an abortion, and well as all the medical personnel involved in the procedure? And would any laypersons who counseled the woman to have an abortion and lent any type of assistance in facilitating its performance (for example, driving the woman to the abortion clinic knowing the abortion will be performed) be subject to, if not murder charges, lesser charges such as manslaughter or aiding in the commission of a crime?
If your answer is "no", why not, if abortion is literally the murder of a human being?

Never heard this exact question. Thank you for posting it in this way. I look forward to the answers. Is abortion literally MURDER? If made illegal, ought all involved be charged with murder or accessory thereto?

Originally Posted by kljr

My father's father wanted my mother to get an abortion. fortunately for me, my mother's parents told him that they would do everything in their power to help their 16 year old daughter raise a child. Not all people are in that position or have that luxury to be in that position. Speaking as some one who almost didn't make it here, if the parent's don't have the capabilities to be good parents

First, great story. Thank you for sharing it.

Second, everyone is in the position to do everything in their power to raise a child. Is everyone a good parent? I don't know if anyone lives up to that, but if you knock someone up or get knocked up, you made a commitment, and you have to step up. Everyone can, just not everyone has the courage and grace of your mother's parents.

What capabilities do you actually need - people around the world raise kids on nothing. You play the hand you are dealt, and if you create a child you put them first. Period. And if you think doing them right means putting them up for adoption that's fine. But no mulligans.

I agree rape and risk of death for the mother creates a different dynamic, but anyone with the resources to do the nasty can find a way to do everyting in their power to do the right thing by what they create.

Originally Posted by smokelaw1

Never heard this exact question. Thank you for posting it in this way. I look forward to the answers. Is abortion literally MURDER? If made illegal, ought all involved be charged with murder or accessory thereto?

I think the editor of my law review wrote a note on this - I never read it but I heard it wasn't very good. Apparently she thought it was a whopping argument against pro-liferes, and surprise surprise her analysis was apparently superficial.

I think if you work your way through the posts in this thread (granted you may not have the five hours you'd need to do that), you'll see that many of us that think abortion is murder think that illegalizing it will likely cause more issues than it will solve, because people will take risks to avoid discomfort and humiliation. So if we aren't going to make it illegal, we probably aren't going to suggest the electric chair either. In fact, a number of us probably don't support the death penalty either. [I do in theory by the way, though I suspect the endless appeals process necessary to do the best job possible of avoiding executing the wrong guy probably isn't worth it either.]

But playing along with the hypothetical, why not execute abortionists? Well, we don't execute people that murder someone that is stalking them. We don't execute people that murder terrorists. We don't execute people that murder a robber in their house. [and yes, those aren't called murder in our system, but neither is abortion] We don't execute kids that murder an abusive parent. We consider the circumstances and sometimes issue quite light punishment. There are a lot of countervailing factors to be weighed in sizing up the morality of a particular act of abortion, and I venture to guess that if it was ever made illegal, it would never result in the death penalty.

Originally Posted by smokelaw1

Oh, judicial activism...which comes first, believing in a "living document" constitution or being a"liberal?" Being a strict textualist/original intent guy or a "conservative?"

The Warren court, from Brown v. BoE to the Griswold line of cases, led the way to Roe with an alternative (to strict textualism) way of seeing the document that gives us our rights.

Now, if being a living document academic makes me a whacked out activist, then I agree with you 100%.
I just don't belive it does, any more than being an original intent scholar makes Bork, Scalia, and Roberts reactionary and backward thinking (I happen to believe they are wrong, though).

Obviously there is no perfect ideal of activism or strict constructionism, like everything else it requires practical judgment. But Roe v. Wade is generally believed to be the one of the most extreme and cynnical acts of blatant legislation by the court, even by it's supporters.

"But playing along with the hypothetical, why not execute abortionists? Well, we don't execute people that murder someone that is stalking them. We don't execute people that murder terrorists. We don't execute people that murder a robber in their house. [and yes, those aren't called murder in our system, but neither is abortion] We don't execute kids that murder an abusive parent. We consider the circumstances and sometimes issue quite light punishment. There are a lot of countervailing factors to be weighed in sizing up the morality of a particular act of abortion, and I venture to guess that if it was ever made illegal, it would never result in the death penalty."

Well--here's where you lose me. As I understand their argument, the pro-life movement takes the position that human life begins at the moment of conception, and that abortion is murder. (the "abortion is murder" position is routinely exhibited on demonstration signs, bumper stickers, etc).
If a fetus is a human being that is morally no different from an "outside the womb" human being, than why wouldn't abortion be the EXACT equivalent of putting a gun to the head of a 9 year old child and pulling the trigger? If someone did actually put a bullet through the head of a 9 year old child, wouldn't that be just the type of henous crime that you would call "murder" and would impose the death penalty for? If so, why from a logical standpoint would the pro-life argument apply any different result to the mother who decides to abort her baby, as well as everyone else involved in bringing the act to fruition? This is what I don't understand in terms of the pro-life position--it argues that the fetus is a human life no different than life outside the womb, but most pro-life folks I've discussed this issue with, who have no problem with the imposing capital punishment in cases of murder, shy away from saying murder charges should be filed in cases of abortion if their view of the issue was ever put into law. If you're going to claim it's a human life, than those who terminate that life, knowingly and with intent, are no different than someone who murders a born human being, no?

if we are going to execute those who have abortions and the doctors that perform them, are we going to execute the executioner and the judge who made that decision? argueably, they are responsible for someone's death. sounds like a vicious circle to me. but as i stated before, if you can't get pregnant, and it's not your baby, it's not your business.

Originally Posted by billyjeff2

"But playing along with the hypothetical, why not execute abortionists? Well, we don't execute people that murder someone that is stalking them. We don't execute people that murder terrorists. We don't execute people that murder a robber in their house. [and yes, those aren't called murder in our system, but neither is abortion] We don't execute kids that murder an abusive parent. We consider the circumstances and sometimes issue quite light punishment. There are a lot of countervailing factors to be weighed in sizing up the morality of a particular act of abortion, and I venture to guess that if it was ever made illegal, it would never result in the death penalty."

Well--here's where you lose me. As I understand their argument, the pro-life movement takes the position that human life begins at the moment of conception, and that abortion is murder. (the "abortion is murder" position is routinely exhibited on demonstration signs, bumper stickers, etc).
If a fetus is a human being that is morally no different from an "outside the womb" human being, than why wouldn't abortion be the EXACT equivalent of putting a gun to the head of a 9 year old child and pulling the trigger? If someone did actually put a bullet through the head of a 9 year old child, wouldn't that be just the type of henous crime that you would call "murder" and would impose the death penalty for? If so, why from a logical standpoint would the pro-life argument apply any different result to the mother who decides to abort her baby, as well as everyone else involved in bringing the act to fruition? This is what I don't understand in terms of the pro-life position--it argues that the fetus is a human life no different than life outside the womb, but most pro-life folks I've discussed this issue with, who have no problem with the imposing capital punishment in cases of murder, shy away from saying murder charges should be filed in cases of abortion if their view of the issue was ever put into law. If you're going to claim it's a human life, than those who terminate that life, knowingly and with intent, are no different than someone who murders a born human being, no?

Then read my post again. I don't know how you could read and ask the same question again.

A - we look at the circumstances of all killings before dolling out judgment. If an adult walks up to a nine year old and shoot him for no reason, that's pretty simple. If an adult shoots a 9 year old that is holding a chainsaw to his five year old sister's neck that different. Aborting a child in the womb because the mother is on crack is different yet again. Even a "purely selfish" abortion involves weitghing the physical burden on the woman. You don't get the same punishment for every very different iteration of the same crime.

B - it's pointless to try to score points by rebutting the most extreme sector of what you demonize as the pro-life movement - not sure anyone posting here is part of that. That's not representaive of most people that are pro-life, anymore than the most extreme pro-abortionists represent you. I bet you don't believe it's ok to stab an 8 month fetus with a coat hanger, but the most extreme elements of the pro abortion movement do - but I'm not going to waste time saying how crazy that is.

Originally Posted by kljr

if we are going to execute those who have abortions and the doctors that perform them, are we going to execute the executioner and the judge who made that decision? argueably, they are responsible for someone's death. sounds like a vicious circle to me. but as i stated before, if you can't get pregnant, and it's not your baby, it's not your business.

Those would be legal government sanctioned killings, where the abortions would be illegal.