Thread: Shaving and Orthodox Judaism story

Originally Posted by Englishgent

Man up, accept that what you did went against the tenants of your familys faith and please stop trying to discredit Jewish people on this forum.

maybe, just maybe, marrying the woman he loved didn't violate any of his own tenants, and he is upset with the kind of religious intolerance that would condemn a man for doing so.

maybe he views his anecdotal experiences with Judaism (thru his family) as representative of an underlying mindset of bigotry, and thus he has a problem with the belief system that fosters such unthinking intolerance.

not too long ago, folks thought it was wrong to marry a girl who had different colored skin than yours. that was pretty bigoted and hateful, too. I just hope someday religious folks can understand that neither skin color nor the religion you were brought up in should keep you from marrying the person you love and want to spend the rest of your life with.

Chimensch, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I've experienced a similar thing (although not connected with Judaism) and the shunning that comes with it, so I totally get why you might be angry. Hell, I'm angry too.

Originally Posted by jockeys

maybe, just maybe, marrying the woman he loved didn't violate any of his own tenants, and he is upset with the kind of religious intolerance that would condemn a man for doing so.

maybe he views his anecdotal experiences with Judaism (thru his family) as representative of an underlying mindset of bigotry, and thus he has a problem with the belief system that fosters such unthinking intolerance.

not too long ago, folks thought it was wrong to marry a girl who had different colored skin than yours. that was pretty bigoted and hateful, too. I just hope someday religious folks can understand that neither skin color nor the religion you were brought up in should keep you from marrying the person you love and want to spend the rest of your life with.

Chimensch, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I've experienced a similar thing (although not connected with Judaism) and the shunning that comes with it, so I totally get why you might be angry. Hell, I'm angry too.

How is wanting our children to marry within our faith unthinking intolerance? I just don't see it.

I want to have Jewish Grandchildren, therefore my children are required to marry Jews and raise any children they may be blessed with as Jews.

It's called survival, and ensures the continuation of the Jewish people. It is that simple. Chimensch or anyone else is free to leave our faith and community and marry who they please.

That is his business, but why come onto an internet message board and slate the religion and family he chose to abandon?

Originally Posted by Englishgent

How is wanting our children to marry within our faith unthinking intolerance? I just don't see it.

I want to have Jewish Grandchildren, therefore my children are required to marry Jews and raise any children they may be blessed with as Jews.

guess you're too close to be objective. notice how you say your "children are require to marry Jews" ? sorry to tell you, but the days of arranged marriages and matchmakers are gone, dude. people marry for love now. sometimes for a tax break. and to demand that your children raise their children the way you want them to? how is it anyone's business but theirs how they choose to raise their children.

if your kids decide they're better off as gentiles, will you love them any less? if they decide to raise their children gentile, will you not love your grandkids?

how is it intolerance? well, you are clearly not tolerant of your family making any religious decisions that you don't agree with. how about letting people think for themselves and make their own choices? it's just so terribly offensive to me that anyone would REQUIRE their children to marry for any reason but love.

Originally Posted by jockeys

guess you're too close to be objective. notice how you say your "children are require to marry Jews" ? sorry to tell you, but the days of arranged marriages and matchmakers are gone, dude. people marry for love now. sometimes for a tax break. and to demand that your children raise their children the way you want them to? how is it anyone's business but theirs how they choose to raise their children.

if your kids decide they're better off as gentiles, will you love them any less? if they decide to raise their children gentile, will you not love your grandkids?

how is it intolerance? well, you are clearly not tolerant of your family making any religious decisions that you don't agree with. how about letting people think for themselves and make their own choices? it's just so terribly offensive to me that anyone would REQUIRE their children to marry for any reason but love.

My children will be educated and taught that they should seek a Jewish partner to fall in love with and marry.

If they were to not do so I would regard it as my failing not theirs.

We come from an unbroken chain of generation after generation of Jews. I personally hope that we continue that chain. If others wish to break it then so be it.

Originally Posted by Englishgent

My children will be educated and taught that they should seek a Jewish partner to fall in love with and marry.

If they were to not do so I would regard it as my failing not theirs. \

The only way it would be a failing is if you consider your people better than the rest of the world.
Btw you cannot teach someone 'falling in love'. You can tell them, but that rarely works.

Originally Posted by Bruno

The only way it would be a failing is if you consider your people better than the rest of the world.
Btw you cannot teach someone 'falling in love'. You can tell them, but that rarely works.

I never said anything about our people being better or worse, just that I hope and pray that my Children will marry other Jews.

Originally Posted by Englishgent

My children will be educated and taught that they should seek a Jewish partner to fall in love with and marry.

If they were to not do so I would regard it as my failing not theirs.

We come from an unbroken chain of generation after generation of Jews. I personally hope that we continue that chain. If others wish to break it then so be it.

My children will be educated to follow their own choices -- I will merely supply them with the wherewithal to make their own choices in life. If that's an understanding of their Jewish culture which leads them to continue those traditions, then its all good. If it's a distrust of organised religion and a rejection of religious Judaism, then so be it. And if it's an appreciation of their mixed background in equal parts (at the cost of losing their Jewishness), that's fine too. As long as the result is a balanced, happy and confident individual, I don't much care if they choose to be Frum or behave like a Goy/Shiksa.

I have fully immersed myself in my wife's culture -- I can says the Baruchs on a Friday night, we celebrate the big festivals (and let me tell you, Jewish festivals are GREAT for kids -- so inclusive and educational, like Passach), I go to all the family occasions (Bar/Bat Mitzvahs, Shivas, etc.) and do not feel out of place whatsoever... despite all of this understanding and involvement with the Jewish culture, I still cannot get my head around the pressure that parents place on their children not to marry out.

It is a truly alien concept to me, and I cannot help feel anger at times. My brother in law tears himself up over the fact he has a secret Shiksa girlfriend, and I remember the prejudice I received and being made to feel like an outcast... in my book, that is a big flaw in the culture.

You see, I'm about as mixed a mongrel as you get, and therefore my Jewish children are too: Russian, Polish, English, Irish, Scottish, and Chinese genes. I am the product of a (racially) mixed marriage. My children are the products of a religiously mixed marriage. And you know what? We're all leading happy healthy lives.

My in-laws accepted me years ago. I forgave them for what they put us through. But I cannot condone what they did. Attitudes like that can make their children's lives a misery and cause terrible anguish and damage. Was it necessary? Really? look at the result -- their daughter married out to someone she loves and makes her happy, and they have some more wonderful grandchildren who they love dearly. And now my background is no longer an issue for them.

Right, here's my ha'porth.

There is no doubt that the Jewish religion has been subject to some of the most horrendous demonstrations of pure evil that humanity has ever perpetrated. The Nazi holocaust was the worst, but examples occur every day, even in the most secular societies, such as the one in which I am privileged to live. Intolerance & its child, persecution, are an utter anathema to me wherever & by whomever they are practiced.

What do I mean by intolerance? When any one person or group of people are treated in a less than civilised & humane manner by other people because of their race, nationality, creed or any other aspect of themselves. I have led a full & interesting life & seen plenty of it, up close & very personal. Tolerance is ridiculously easy to do. Just be as courteous to every single person whom you meet as you would like them to be to you. Try it. I guarantee you will have a very nice day.

Unfortunately, it seems that Judaism breeds intolerance in many places, even here. Why? I can not definitively say. I do believe that it has something to do with Jewish cultural & social insularity & the claim of being the only deity's chosen. For example "So you think that you're better than us, do you? We'll show you. Let's have a pogrom boys. We'll have their cash & valuables because they're different to us & don't want to join in. Then we'll kill 'em or deport 'em" It has happened in most countries at one time or another in history. I would have thought that a tribe that has been discriminated against so much would be a little more tolerant when it has the upper hand. Current events give the lie to that. Can someone please explain to me how the West Bank & Gaza Strip are anything other than Palestinian ghettos?

History points are done. What Mark & Chimensch have related about their life experiences appall me. Having met them both (& they seem to be damn fine blokes) I cannot understand why anyone would want to put them through such anguish because of the choices they made or with whom they fell in love. Trying to give it respectability by saying that it is an issue of cultural or religious preservation is petty & very narrow minded. All faiths believe that humanity were given free will by the creator. How can one deny that gift, surely the greatest of all of the deity's & claim that it is being done in order to further the service of that deity? My paternal family are Traditional Welsh Pagans. My father rebelled against that by becoming a Christian & seeking to indoctrinate his family into that faith. I went against him by going to my grandfather & seeking to learn the old ways. I have walked that path ever since & my faith has supported me emotionally, mentally, spiritually & at the worst of times physically. You cannot force a child to be any one thing. If you give them the choice, however, they may well seek to follow tradition because it can help them to establish their own identity within that tradition

Mr Englishgent, you claim that Signore Chimensch is a self-hater. How on earth can you justify your screen name then, given your location, without a charge of hypocrisy? We are all shaped by our life's experiences. If they are negative, we will associate them with negativity. If, subsequently, you are less than enthusiastic about the group which you believe caused it, is it surprising? I cannot see that Chimensch has made any comments that are defamatory to your faith or the Israeli nation. Could it not be that you are in some small way further persecuting him for what you see as abandoning the tribe, when all that he did was follow his heart & was ostracised for it?

Madame YesSheDoes. Your take on intolerance is interesting. It seems to me that your tolerance only stretches as far as your agreement. Atheists, New Agers & "perversion" fall outside your fence & therefore you feel free to say that they are some how lesser because they do not agree with you. The purge to which you refer is not a crusade against your faith, but a levelling of the field so that all faiths may be free to be practiced. Yes I did read your signature. All those you say are intolerant are simply seeking the same level of courtesy for their beliefs that you demand, nay expect for yours. Your god is your god, not mine, & I do not want him forced down my throat when I make it abundantly clear, to the fundamentalist evangelists who repeatedly knock on my door that I am not interested. If I were to be impolite for a moment, I would say that that arrogance sickens me, as it has no respect for my faith, which does not make any claims to be the only Truth, merely that which I find to be true for me. It isn't a mish mash of politics dogma & a little of what remains of the totality of the amazing teachings of a zombie Jewish magician. Manners now resume. I am a Pagan & a Pervert & proud of both. Why? Because they are both things to which I have come through using the mind which the gods gave me. If I harm no one, what business is it of any one else? You may not agree with me, nor I with you, but I will not call you evil, but encourage you to consider why you think these things are wrong. Just being different should be celebrated not reviled. The only people whom I have met whom I did not like are those who are discourteous & do not think for themselves. With the rest, it's been a ball!

As far as being shunned or cast out for marrying outside his faith you all have to understand that the orthodox who do this live in a society where that is the norm and that's the way it has to be. The family members might feel bad about it but there is no other consideration. You do x and y happens to you. That's how they maintain their sect.

In many ways its no different than many other groups of people who do things the rest of the world might not understand, tolerate or like.

Originally Posted by Englishgent

How is wanting our children to marry within our faith unthinking intolerance? I just don't see it.

I want to have Jewish Grandchildren, therefore my children are required to marry Jews and raise any children they may be blessed with as Jews.

It's called survival, and ensures the continuation of the Jewish people. It is that simple. Chimensch or anyone else is free to leave our faith and community and marry who they please.

That is his business, but why come onto an internet message board and slate the religion and family he chose to abandon?

I agree with EnglishGent 100%.

Up until 2 years ago, I disagreed with this quite strongly, even though my Jewish friend pointed out quite passionately that "we are dying out!" He was explaining why he would never have married outside of his faith. And he believed that Jews should only marry other Jews, since the numbers of Jews worldwide are dwindling. (He was also kind of slamming Christians for marrying Jews and then raising the kids Christian.)

And I said something like, "Oh, really? So how come you and YOUR wife don't have kids? And you're crying about your brother marrying a Christian and their kids being raised Christian, but how much have you tried to bring a Jewish influence into their lives? And speaking of which, where are all the Jewish missionaries? Y'all leave the 'heavy lifting' of spreading God's Word to us Christians who get ourselves shot, massacred, heads lopped off...how come y'all don't do missionary work if Judaism is so great?"

He had no answer.

Fast-forward to now. I've read more about my Jewish ancestery (1/4, and it's on my mother's side, so ethnically, I AM Jewish.) I understand now that Jewish people have been extremely and unrelentingly persecuted in the last 2,000 years to the extent that they are understandably gun-shy about sticking their necks out to witness or anything.

(Although I still think they should spread God's Word more, even with the persecution risk..and so should Christians.)

God (or G_d as Jews prefer) specifically commanded His people, the Jews, NOT to intermarry. It is in the Torah, which means it is also in the first 5 books of the Christian Old Testament. God's reason for this was because He did not want the other ethnic groups with their idol worship and blasphemies to become a snare to His people (i.e., lead them off track.)

Unfortunately, that is EXACTLY what has happened.

So, yeah, EnglishDude has the right to seek out a Jewish woman to marry if he wants to, and so does anyone else who has any kind of specs in seeking a mate!!!