Thread: Jewish Lawmaker Compares Israel to Nazis

I am posting a link to a very important video of a statement Sir Gerald Kaufman made yesterday in the British Parliament. This is a courageous act that contrasts sharply with the servile behavior of our own US congress. It is important because it is yet another example of a Jew who has the courage to say to the leaders of the State of Israel that there conduct is not representative of the Jewish people and absolutely contrary to Jewish values. I am also posting it because it is a fitting rebuttal to the comments directed at me by some of the Jewish members of the site.

Admittedly, I didn't watch the video. However, I can tell you that his contrarian view, as you portrayed it, is not representative of many Jewish people I know. They are fully supporting the military initiative.

Originally Posted by TstebinsB

Admittedly, I didn't watch the video. However, I can tell you that his contrarian view, as you portrayed it, is not representative of many Jewish people I know. They are fully supporting the military initiative.

And my opinion is exactly the opposite. There are many Jews who are appalled by what is happening. Their views are represented in several places on the Internet. Mondoweiss is one very important site. To Americans, it seems that all Jews support Israel's actions because the mainstream media does not report on the opposition. Unfortunately, the slaughter in Gaza has become so horrible (more than a 1,000) dead, that cracks in the united front supporting Israel are starting to appear everywhere. All you need to do is open your eyes to it.

In addition to Mondoweiss, Information Clearing House is a good source for news.

Originally Posted by Chimensch

...there conduct is not representative of the Jewish people...

and this is based on some reliable poll or vote?

I believe most of us see exactly what we want to see! Sometimes we can convince others, but they are either weak minded and easily lead or we touched upon something within them that was ready to come forth anyways!
we tend to hang out with like minded people and live our whole lives within a circle that thinks exactly, or at least closely to the way that we do, and then believe that this is the way the majority think because we rarely have to hear another opinion, and when we do hear the "other" opinion we fall back on our circle of friends, our books, our websites, or whatever you will, that will gladly reaffirm what we already believe!

It is a rare person who can think for himself!

Originally Posted by Quick

and this is based on some reliable poll or vote?

Please don't send me off to cite references ... I don't have the time, but there have been a lot of polls about Jewish attitudes to the peace process that show, for example, that most people would support exchanging land for peace. As also happens in the US, our political leaders, and the media, tend to reflect the opinions of the wealthy and powerful and not those of the common people. This is especially true of AIPAC, the Israel lobby.

Originally Posted by Chimensch

I am posting a link to a very important video of a statement Sir Gerald Kaufman made yesterday in the British Parliament. This is a courageous act that contrasts sharply with the servile behavior of our own US congress. It is important because it is yet another example of a Jew who has the courage to say to the leaders of the State of Israel that there conduct is not representative of the Jewish people and absolutely contrary to Jewish values. I am also posting it because it is a fitting rebuttal to the comments directed at me by some of the Jewish members of the site.

No it's not a fitting rebuttal, it's a statement made by a coward and a turncoat, Kaufman is another self hating communist. Stop trying to use the actions of a minority to justify your own agenda. You have left the Jewish family of your own violition. Let's leave it there shall we??

Exchange land for peace? peace with who? So the tiny country of Israel will give up some of their land for a promise of peace with the militants who have sworn to destroy them and when they are even closer to being able to lob rockets into more populated areas of Israel then what? What you are saying is exactly what Mr Chamberland did with Mr Hitler in WWll. They gave Hitler the green light to start his invasion of Europe in exchange for "peace in our time" and look what happened. That's appeasement.

I'm not well informed on this matter, but it seems to me that the current problems are due to people living in the past and not accepting changes that are done and dusted and frankly irreversible. Israel has existed for 60 years. Isn't it about time Israel's neighbours simply accepted this fact and got on with things, no matter how badly they feel about what land was taken?

Gerald Kaufman's speech was passionate, but made the same mistake of referring too heavily to what is approaching ancient history. I.e. precisely the attitude that is causing today's violence.

I'm not supporting Israel's actions right now. It is becoming increasingly difficult to see them as "the Good Guys" considering the targets they've been hitting and their rote justifications for their attacks.

But if the Palestinians would stop their violence, the Israelis would lose any excuse for mounting their attacks and the international community would inevitably pressure Israel to stop. But the Palestianians choose not to stop.

I don't think either side has the moral high ground. But if the Israeli Govenment are fools as Kaufmann is suggesting, what does that make the Palestinians who are equally responsible for the continuing violence and losing many more lives?

Originally Posted by Englishgent

No it's not a fitting rebuttal, it's a statement made by a coward and a turncoat, Kaufman is another self hating communist. Stop trying to use the actions of a minority to justify your own agenda. You have left the Jewish family of your own violition. Let's leave it there shall we??

The Israelis are dropping white phosphorus bombs on schools and killing refugees and policemen ... over 1000 dead and you continue to try to shift the focus on me. In your interpretation of the world everyone who criticizes Israel is a "turncoat" or a "self-hater". This is nuts. If the world turns against Israel, it will be because of what Israel is doing and not because I left the Jewish family. You need to step back and take a direct look at who is committing the "violitions".

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Exchange land for peace? peace with who? So the tiny country of Israel will give up some of their land for a promise of peace with the militants who have sworn to destroy them and when they are even closer to being able to lob rockets into more populated areas of Israel then what? What you are saying is exactly what Mr Chamberland did with Mr Hitler in WWll. They gave Hitler the green light to start his invasion of Europe in exchange for "peace in our time" and look what happened. That's appeasement.

During the six months of the most recent cease-fire, according to the Israeli Foreign Ministry, Hamas killed exactly zero Israelis. It was Israel that broke the cease-fire by entering Gaza and killing six of Hamas's men on November 4th, under the cover of election day in the US. The rockets that started after were retaliation for that. By Israel's own admission, this attack was planned even before the start of the cease-fire. If you go back through the long history of this conflict, one things stands out. Israel has never negotiated with the Palestinians in good faith because it doesn't want a settlement. All this business about sworn enemies who will never rest is progaganda.

Originally Posted by Rajagra

I'm not well informed on this matter, but it seems to me that the current problems are due to people living in the past and not accepting changes that are done and dusted and frankly irreversible. Israel has existed for 60 years. Isn't it about time Israel's neighbours simply accepted this fact and got on with things, no matter how badly they feel about what land was taken?

Gerald Kaufman's speech was passionate, but made the same mistake of referring too heavily to what is approaching ancient history. I.e. precisely the attitude that is causing today's violence.

I'm not supporting Israel's actions right now. It is becoming increasingly difficult to see them as "the Good Guys" considering the targets they've been hitting and their rote justifications for their attacks.

But if the Palestinians would stop their violence, the Israelis would lose any excuse for mounting their attacks and the international community would inevitably pressure Israel to stop. But the Palestianians choose not to stop.

I don't think either side has the moral high ground. But if the Israeli Govenment are fools as Kaufmann is suggesting, what does that make the Palestinians who are equally responsible for the continuing violence and losing many more lives?

My interpretation is different. In their hearts, the Israeli's know that, if their positions were reversed, if it had been the Palestinians that had done to them what they have done to the Palestinians, that they (the Israelis) would never forgive and never forget and work forever for to destroy them. In other words, the Israelis are "projecting" their fears on to the Palestinians. These feelings are understandable but they are not rational.

I grew up in a similar environment to Englishgent's. Jews who live inside the community are taught that the entire world hates them and wants to destroy them. That they must "circle the wagons" to defend themselves and that a Jew must never criticize another Jew (or the State of Israel) in front of the goyim. This is why he is so angry; he is afraid that my criticizing him will lead to increased antisemitism and put his life in jeopardy. But the difference between me and Englishgent is that I decided to got out into the wider world to see if it was true. What I found is a Christian culture that isn't much interested in the Jews unless they create problems. Thousands of years of indoctrination have created a Jewish people that believes that the world hates them for no reason. Since everyone hates us for no reason, it doesn't matter what we do. The Israelis feel that the world will hate them even if they make peace with the Palestinians, so why make peace? Why not just be the biggest bastards on the planet and take what we want, given that the end result will be the same? Well, the answer to that is that this can't go on. If Israel continues to act like it is, then the world will once again turn on the Jews and the Jews will say, "see we told you so".

Look at Englishgent's reaction to my bringing up real problems. There are no problems, just turncoat, self-hating Jews. Israel? "The most moral army in the world!" (quoting Ehud Olmert, not Englishgent).

Englishgent doesn't like the things I am saying. Fine, no one has to like what I am saying or agree with me. But what does Englishgent say? He says nothing about the problem. All he wants to do is disqualify me and take away my right to have an opinion. I said the Jewish religion is racist. Englishgent doesn't bother to say, "no it's not racist and here's why". No, he says you have no right to say anything because you left the Jewish family. This is exactly the problem. The world says to Israel that it should negotiate with the Palestinians and Israel says, "No, we can't negotiate because they hate us." So, who do people negotiate with, their friends? OK, I'll say it plain already. Israel is nuts, it's a lunatic state. Israel doesn't need enemies, it's its own worst enemy. Israel is committing suicide.