Thread: go to prison for insulting someone?

This is legislating thought and belief, which is very dangerous. These laws state that if you believe X, and commit a crime based upon such belief, then you are guilty of yet another crime. not an increase in the punishment, but a wholy seperate crime. Take it back to Nazi Germany where the converse was true. You commit a crime, a murder, but it was against a Jew, and you belived Jews were inferior and should be wiped off the face of the planet, well that was just fine. however you murder a non-jew aryan german, and you were in likely to hang. They legislated beliefs such that it was okay to commit "hate crimes." The legislation of beliefs is a very slippery slope that will lead to bad results. Legislate the action, not the motive behind it.

Edit: to be clear I do believe that the motive can be a factor in determining the punishment of the crime, but it should not be a crime in and of itself.

Originally Posted by mhailey

This is legislating thought and belief, which is very dangerous. These laws state that if you believe X, and commit a crime based upon such belief, then you are guilty of yet another crime. not an increase in the punishment, but a wholy seperate crime. Take it back to Nazi Germany where the converse was true. You commit a crime, a murder, but it was against a Jew, and you belived Jews were inferior and should be wiped off the face of the planet, well that was just fine. however you murder a non-jew aryan german, and you were in likely to hang. They legislated beliefs such that it was okay to commit "hate crimes." The legislation of beliefs is a very slippery slope that will lead to bad results. Legislate the action, not the motive behind it.

Edit: to be clear I do believe that the motive can be a factor in determining the punishment of the crime, but it should not be a crime in and of itself.

Aren't there often "Hate Crime Enhancements" to sentencing, as opposed to a whiolly separate crime?

I also beg to differ with your calling this Thought Legislation. You are allowed to think whatever you want. Once that thought becomes ACTION, it is the ACTION that is punished. If that ACTION falls into a DIFFERENT CATEGORY because of that thought....that isn't the thought itself ebing punished, it is the CRIME, that was CHANGED or ENHANCED because of it.
Many might see that as semantics. I do not.

Colorado Revised Statute 18-9-121. It is a seperate crime in my state. I won't comment on other states.

Originally Posted by smokelaw1

I also beg to differ with your calling this Thought Legislation. You are allowed to think whatever you want. Once that thought becomes ACTION, it is the ACTION that is punished. If that ACTION falls into a DIFFERENT CATEGORY because of that thought....that isn't the thought itself ebing punished, it is the CRIME, that was CHANGED or ENHANCED because of it.
Many might see that as semantics. I do not.

No, when it is a sperate crime, it is the thought that is punished. You kill someone with premeditation, and are charged with 1st degree murder. If your thoughts were that this person is infeior because of their race/religion/gender/sexual orientation and you were thinking/beliveing this when you committed the first degree murder, then you get charged with yet another crime. That is the ciminalization of thought. There is no enhancement of the 1st degree murder charge, it is a wholly seperate crime.

Take this case for example: Man Found Guilty Of Murder, Hate Crime In Transgender Killing - Denver News Story - KMGH Denver

Originally Posted by mhailey

Edit: to be clear I do believe that the motive can be a factor in determining the punishment of the crime, but it should not be a crime in and of itself.

this is where I am. I didn't realize that, effectively, your intent became criminal as well.

That's quite odd.

Clearly, 'hating' is not a crime no matter who you hate. I hate George Bush (just sayin') but nobody's gonna lock me up for it. That would be thought police, Matt. I can even tell people that I hate him. I just did. Nobody's gonna lock me up for that either, but if I start spreading the opinion that anybody named Bush is responsible for the impending destruction of the world economy unless we all do something drastic about it, like kill them all, well then I'm inciting violence aren't I? Motive will be considered in all crimes and if inciting hate, violence and unrest is determined to be a motive then they can lock me up.

There is nothing irrational or "thought police" about it. You may draw the same inference in many other crimes. I'd like some money so I think about robbing a bank. No crime. I start to plan the robbing of a bank and they have a reason to come and get me. They may not have a lot of evidence at this stage, but if they have enough they may be able to prosecute. I don't know. But if I get my gang together and bust the doors of the Royal Bank down, well then I get my phone call, don't I?

It is not dangerous to enact hate legislation. It is far more dangerous not to as evidenced by the NAZI's (I didn't mention them first )

X

PS Ray, I assume you're kidding, but that subsection just means that the already advantaged cannot take unfair advantage of programs designed to help the disadvantaged just because everybody deserves equal treatment.

Canadian justice:Mark Steyn Human Rights Tribunal "Show Trial" Opens in Vancouver

Canadian priest accused of hate crime (OneNewsNow.com)

Christianity Under Attack In Canada As Priest Is Investigated Under Federal 'Hate Crime' Law For Quoting From The Bible :: Faith :: Hyscience

Coming to a US court near you...if we don't wake up

Originally Posted by JMS

Coming to a US court near you...if we don't wake up

I think enough has been said so far in this thread to discount the possibilioty of your fears coming true.
We have freedom of speech protected in the constitution in this country. We have freedom of religion.

If the Westboro Baptist "Church" nutjobs protesting at funerals of fallen soldiers can't be prosecuted, what makes you think your priest will be for "quoting from the bibe?"

If the US ever gets there, I'll be standing beside you to fight it with every ounce of my being. Really. Your right to practice your religion is safe here. your right to say what you wish (up to a very high standard, I'd argue) is safe here. Hate crime legislation in the US won't criminalize speech. At least this one will not, nor will any that would fit into even some of the most liberal interpretations of the constitution and our rights that I have ever read.

If you attack a man on the street, screaming "Die, DIE!" it's a crime, and you will be charged for it.
If you attack a man on the street, screaming "Die, Faggot, DIE!" it's a crime, and you will be charged for it, and your sentence may be "enhanced." (on the federal level) I do not know, and can not speak to any state laws, including those who treat the "hate element" as a different crime. Not sure I completely disagree with it, as long as it can only be charge ALONG WITH the underlying crime. If it canbe a stand alone charge, it might run afoul of my opinion on the matter, but that, again, might be best served in another thread.

Originally Posted by smokelaw1

I think enough has been said so far in this thread to discount the possibilioty of your fears coming true.
We have freedom of speech protected in the constitution in this country. We have freedom of religion.

It is protected by the constitution but what now protects the constitution?

For more than 30 years now I have seen nothing but growing contempt For our founding principles and the documents that state those principles by none other than our elected officials. "We the people" are this countries last hope.

By the way, I would be honored to have you stand side by side with me if it ever comes down to it.

Sorry for the double post here.....