Thread: Honor killing and the difference in cultures.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

This is the true heart of the problem, immigrants no longer wish nor need to become part of the country that they are immigrating into...

The attitude now has become so warped that the new waves of immigrants actually believe that their new country somehow needs to adapt to suit them instead of the other way around....
We actually see this with the huge influx of people moving to Nth Idaho from the coast, both California and Washington transplants have the same attitude when they move up here with their continual statements of "We used to do it like this where I am from"

Steps down off the soap box

Question - Was this not behavior for all immigrant communities in the past?
German communities in Milwaukee
Italian communities in New York
Irish communities in Boston
Japanese communities in San Fransisco and Seattle
Chinese communities on the west coast
Jewish communities in New York
Little Havana in Miami

The creation of these communities are good examples of immigrants in the past who wanted preserve some of the cultural identity and have a support system to help themselves in a new country. Is it not?

Frankly I believe it was.

And similar arguments were made then as they are now that the new wave of immigrants do not want to assimilate.

Fast forward to today and "generations" later these immigrants (you, I, many others have assimilated into American culture. These communities actually contributed to American Culture and are now proudly associated with American Culture. It was the fairness , equality and opportunity provided by American society that allowed this to happen.

I have full reason to believe that America will continue its great tradition of fairness, equality and opportunity and the same will happen with the newer immigrants..

Originally Posted by gugi

Actually the only enforceable thing is the letter of the law, the rest basically is an individual choice. As Glen noted - his grandfather set the rules for his children, it's not the society that did it.
It's a free country and as long as it remains so people can make their free choices and live with the consequences. The smart ones would make smart choices, the dumb ones will make dumb choices. I don't see any problem with this, and I don't see how the problems that have been noted can be solved in a way that preserves the same values that the solution is supposed to preserve.

What you are saying is correct. But it seems, these days, that entire communities are not making the "smart" decision. Then, certain bleeding hearts blame society as a whole for their failures instead of the individual. I don't know the solution either, except that we have to tell the truth about it. Even if that hurts some people's feelings.

Jordan

Originally Posted by Amyn

Question - Was this not behavior for all immigrant communities in the past?
German communities in Milwaukee
Italian communities in New York
Irish communities in Boston
Japanese communities in San Fransisco and Seattle
Chinese communities on the west coast
Jewish communities in New York
Little Havana in Miami

The creation of these communities are good examples of immigrants in the past who wanted preserve some of the cultural identity and have a support system to help themselves in a new country. Is it not?

Frankly I believe it was.

And similar arguments were made then as they are now that the new wave of immigrants do not want to assimilate.

Fast forward to today and "generations" later these immigrants (you, I, many others have assimilated into American culture. These communities actually contributed to American Culture and are now proudly associated with American Culture. It was the fairness , equality and opportunity provided by American society that allowed this to happen.

I have full reason to believe that America will continue its great tradition of fairness, equality and opportunity and the same will happen with the newer immigrants..

But the difference today seems to be that some here want to "enable" immigrants and allow them to stay separate - teaching school in languages other than English, for example. I don't think they did that at the turn of the last century.

The groups of the past also embraced the values I mentioned earlier. They didn't dance in the streets when their new country was attacked. They were proud to be American, not an XXXXXX just living in the US.

Jordan

Originally Posted by Amyn

Question - Was this not behavior for all immigrant communities in the past?
German communities in Milwaukee
Italian communities in New York
Irish communities in Boston
Japanese communities in San Fransisco and Seattle
Chinese communities on the west coast
Jewish communities in New York
Little Havana in Miami

The creation of these communities are good examples of immigrants in the past who wanted preserve some of the cultural identity and have a support system to help themselves in a new country. Is it not?

Frankly I believe it was.

And similar arguments were made then as they are now that the new wave of immigrants do not want to assimilate.

Fast forward to today and "generations" later these immigrants (you, I, many others have assimilated into American culture. These communities actually contributed to American Culture and are now proudly associated with American Culture. It was the fairness , equality and opportunity provided by American society that allowed this to happen.

I have full reason to believe that America will continue its great tradition of fairness, equality and opportunity and the same will happen with the newer immigrants..

Keep in mind that I am not in anyway saying this is an American problem only, this is happening everywhere, and it is not the holding on to ones culture, that is a problem , never has been....
It is the new expectation, that the new country, should change to suit the incoming immigrant, that the new country somehow should be beholding to the new immigrant, that has become the problem, read the link that Rajagra posted, and see that in England they have set up a separate legal system ... This is the problem.....

Here in the US just look at the language issues, I personally do not believe that I should have to pay taxes, to print DL manuals in multiple languages, or school books, or hire multi-lingual teachers, cops, government workers, or any other worker for that matter at a higher pay rate, just to be able to communicate with a new influx of immigrants, who are not willing to learn the language of the country they have "CHOSEN" to move to....

This I DO have a problem with here in the US, I am sure other countries are having the same problems that we are having too....

Now that you want to celebrate the Chinese New Year, Ramadan, Cinco d Mayo or any other thing to preserve your culture, and to make the host counrty a little more worldly???? I DO NOT have a problem with... at your cost!!!!!!

Stupid soapbox !!!

Glen, you just wrote what I was thinking, but couldn't express as clearly. Thanks.

Jordan

Trust me Jordan it took some editing, to make me think, I had it sorta clear hehehe

Originally Posted by jnich67

But the difference today seems to be that some here want to "enable" immigrants and allow them to stay separate - teaching school in languages other than English, for example. I don't think they did that at the turn of the last century.

The groups of the past also embraced the values I mentioned earlier. They didn't dance in the streets when their new country was attacked. They were proud to be American, not an XXXXXX just living in the US.

Jordan

There were German groups in the United States that were loyal to Hitler during WWII. This is very well documented.

As for the language question which is really complicated and is a whole different thread. Immigrants from the past had the same struggles.

"Enablers" = "Disablers" across time. There are just an many enablers today as there are disablers.

I believe that anyone who wants to move forward in "world society" not just "american society" must learn English. English is the language of business and science. Although I honestly I think it is a great asset to be bilingual. Most of the world other countries are a bilingual.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Stupid soapbox !!!

You did well, Glen. There are a lot of nice ideals flying around this thread but I suggest everyone to read Ray's article again.

Originally Posted by Rajagra

I don't even want to comment on this.

Ok I'll comment then.
It seems to me fair as long as you allow this group of people to set disputes among themselves, to also allow that other group of people. I think most here believe in personal freedom and responsibility, so if two parties agree among themselves on some matter, I see no reason for the society to step in and change that.

I don't know why would such agreements have to be enforced by the 'official' system though. In my thinking the 'official' system should only enforce the official judgements.

The fact that the jewish arbitrage courts or whatever they are would rule closer to what the legal system would, and the sharia ones wouldn't doesn't make the first more credible than the second. If you want to outsource justice you either have to keep up with the exact same standard, or it is a completely different kind of justice.

And as long as their decisions do not have to be enforced by the state if somebody is not happy with these unofficial courts they can turn to the official system of justice which is enforceable. Of course this would just make these communal courts completely irrelevant, but in my opinion they should really be. Justice has to be enforceable, otherwise it's pointless.

At least that's how I think I'd like it to be set up. And I don't have any legal training, so it's just my 'common sense'.

I love the spirited discussions here....

(jumps on the soapbox)

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Keep in mind that I am not in anyway saying this is an American problem only, this is happening everywhere, and it is not the holding on to ones culture, that is a problem , never has been....
It is the new expectation, that the new country, should change to suit the incoming immigrant, that the new country somehow should be beholding to the new immigrant, that has become the problem,

I disagree that immigrants have the expectation of the new country to change. Majority of the immigrants who move to a new country have a singular goal and that is to survive in their new environment, to find work to feed themselves and their family. It would be quite silly of them to think they can come into a new society and completely change it. The can and do create small safe havens /communities to preserve some of their culture and to provide a support system as I mentioned earlier.

Say you moved from Alabama to New York, you sure as heck would not expect every New Yorker to start talking with a southern twang, and start drinking ice-tea, eating fried chicken and biscuits, and follow college football like a religion. It ain't happening!!! if you want to try.
No disrespect to anyone from New York or Alabama.

Yes you may find a bar where Alabama fans gather to watch games, suck on some suds and smoke a few stogies...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

read the link that Rajagra posted, and see that in England they have set up a separate legal system ... This is the problem.....

Very interesting that you mention England. The manner in which England has dealt with its immigrants and the way the United States has dealt with its immigrants the differences are night and day. Here in the US if you worked hard and you had the opportunities to move up in society and make a good life for yourself regardless of your background. Immigrants have done so and succeeded and assimilated. Once again goes back to my point about the equality, fairness and opportunity presented by American society.

Great Britain on the other has still has rampant problems with discrimination and classism , and the problems they are having today is a direct result of these issues. Immigrant communities were isolated and radicalized because of their inability to economically prosper because of discrimination and classism.

Is it not surprising that GB and USA have very large Muslim populations yet radicalization has been a problem for GB and not the USA...